How dystopian can a Ron Paul presidency get?

Lost Freeway

Banned
So, Ron Paul manages to win the presidency in either 1988, 2008, 2012, or some year in between Everybody knows Paul has some...questionable views(CSA apologism, isolationism, support for state government tyranny, etc.). If he gets into office and manages to act on those views, how badly would America get screwed?
 

TinyTartar

Banned
I'd say that things would not get all that bad merely because of the fact that for any of his truly zany stuff to get approved, he'd need congressional backing, and Congress, despite the appearance of far right Tea Party zealots and far left corrupt urban politicians, won't buck the neoliberal order that while flawed, has kept a high standard of living for a long time.

For Paul to get elected though, he'd need the backing of powerful zeitgeist players, something unlikely to happen unless society is profoundly dystopic on its own.
 

John7755 يوحنا

I personally do not find Ron Paul as some sort of dystopian politician but hey to each his own. At least we would not be bombing every Middle Eastern nation and claiming our interest in doing so.
 

Napoleon IV

John7755 يوحنا said:
I personally do not find Ron Paul as some sort of dystopian politician but hey to each his own. At least we would not be bombing every Middle Eastern nation and claiming our interest in doing so.
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Yeah, but Medicare, welfare, and Social Security would be gutted (if not destroyed completely), taxes would be cut to the point where the government wouldn't be able to function, most regulations would be cancelled, and the Civil Rights Act would be repealed. It would basically be Rumsfeldia on steroids.
 

sciscisciortino

I'm working on a not-quite-dystopic timeline now that has him screw things up pretty badly, but still would be hemmed in by Congress. Stay tuned.
 

overoceans

Just out of curiousity, has there ever been a literary dystopia where government has been decentralized(as would likely be the case in a Ron Paul-led world)? In almost all the dysopias I can think of, there is either a strong central government, or at least all authority seems to emanate from one source, without much interference from any competing levels.

Arguably, in a lot of cyberpunk, the state has just sort of withered away, though it's arguable whether that qualifies as dystopia in the technical sense, since it doesn't really deal with the (mis)application of a political ideology.
 

GlobalHumanism

overoceans said:
Just out of curiousity, has there ever been a literary dystopia where government has been decentralized(as would likely be the case in a Ron Paul-led world)? In almost all the dysopias I can think of, there is either a strong central government, or at least all authority seems to emanate from one source, without much interference from any competing levels.

Arguably, in a lot of cyberpunk, the state has just sort of withered away, though it's arguable whether that qualifies as dystopia in the technical sense, since it doesn't really deal with the (mis)application of a political ideology.
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2 examples

Blade Runner and Neo-Seoul in Cloud Atlas

Both describe the dehumanizing extremes of neoliberalist corporate hegemony over political and civil powers
 
Sian

Sian

Jennifer Government, (the source book for the idea behind Nationstates.net) where the Government have been so decentralized that it barely exist, with competing, militarized, coperations running just about everything, up to and including schools and the police force
 

lukedalton

Well much depend on the context and the political surrounding and when Ron become president.
There is something that totally shift the political paradigm of the USA (and this mean a congress and a senate more pliable at Ron law) or he is just the darkhorse candidate elected due to scandal/horrible primaries/worse adversary (and this mean a more isolated presidency with the legislative body not really in tune with him.)
 

jahenders

Banned
Even if he were elected, none of the below would happen. No president can unilaterally do any of that and he's likely wise enough not to even try. Instead, he would likely just be a voice for moving things in that direction -- cutting government, reduced spending, etc. By the time he bashed his head against congress with those ideas, the impact would likely just be less spending growth.

Other than that, his tendency would be to be largely isolationist internationally, but once President, he'd see that there were lots of pushes for action from inside the government (Intel, State, DoD, Congress, etc) and he'd likely have to support/allow some.

Napoleon IV said:
Yeah, but Medicare, welfare, and Social Security would be gutted (if not destroyed completely), taxes would be cut to the point where the government wouldn't be able to function, most regulations would be cancelled, and the Civil Rights Act would be repealed. It would basically be Rumsfeldia on steroids.
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Laqueesha

Laqueesha

jahenders said:
Even if he were elected, none of the below would happen. No president can unilaterally do any of that and he's likely wise enough not to even try. Instead, he would likely just be a voice for moving things in that direction -- cutting government, reduced spending, etc. By the time he bashed his head against congress with those ideas, the impact would likely just be less spending growth. Other than that, his tendency would be to be largely isolationist internationally, but once President, he'd see that there were lots of pushes for action from inside the government (Intel, State, DoD, Congress, etc) and he'd likely have to support/allow some.
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Sounds reasonable. :)
 

lukedalton

Laqueesha said:
Sounds reasonable. :)
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Well he can become 'somewhat dystopian' with the Paul presidency being at odd with the congress and the senato from day one and basically for the duration of his presidency nothing is done; add at this the fact that bipartisan working in this period seem an insult and we have the US goverment basically stopping for 4 years with all the economical and political consequence, expecially if there is a crisis and the world get just a lucklustre leaderships
 

historynutty

Banned
Far from dysutopian a USA which had elected Ron Paul in 1988 (rather than Bush One) would today to be a far better place than we have..........BECAUSE to have elected RP the Character of the American People as a whole would have deviated noticeably from the IRL USA of 1988. Assuming Dr Paul as President from January 1989 thru January 1991 followed worthy successors up thru today I would predict-

1) No early 1990's Gulf War 1- Ron's VP clearly explained to the regime there that Kuwait is a sovereign State and to the Kuwait regime the need to cease slant drilling for Iraqi oil.
2) Nothing unusual happens on Sept 11, 2001 on the surface but there was a scare which only those with 'a need to know' understand
3) Abolition of NATO in the mid-1990's after German unification
4) USA Military in 2015 numbers around 800K active members (less than 10000 stationed outside the USA) with a Budget of perhaps $300B in current dollars. USA has not fought a significant military engagement since Reagan's Panama invasion.
5) Relations with Israel are coldly correct and at arm's length. Military and dual use tech export have been embargoed since 2003.
6) Nation debt has been on a steady downward glide since 1995
7) Social welfare type expenditures by the Feds were largely discontinued in the years 1990 thru 2002 returning taxing ans spending responsibility to the several States. Medicare/Medicare is in the process of transitioning to private MSA's for all with modest subsidy to senors and low income starting in 1999 with a targeted completion in 2017. The insurance industry has been the dog of the DOW most years since 2000. The States have taken a variety of approaches to healthcare ranging from a bare bones system of State operated free clinics for the means challenged coupled with Non-subsidy MSA’s for the general population in many Plains, Mountain and Southern States to fullup Single Payer in the LA Basin, NYC/Long Island, Vermont and Chicago metroplex.
8) Speaking of the States- their number has increased starting after 1994. Unable to gain much traction in a return to National Power both progressives and business elite republicans foster moves to subdivide key States to further their ambitions- California in 1999 (six new States), Texas in 2000 (five new States), Florida (north and south) in 2002, New York( NYC/Long Island and upstate) in 2003, City States of Detroit and Chicago carved from Illinois and Michigan in 2005 and partition of Oregon and Washington at the Cascades in 2007. Many new States but virtually no change in the political balance of reduced scope DC. 2011 sees the roster of the States decline by two as Vermont strikes out on its own to achieve a vision of green/progressive perfection followed months later by the hardcore true believer Paulists of New Hampshire tired of 20 some years of only incremental change. Four years later two small republics are finding that total independence includes total self-responsibility- a lesson as hard for NH as it turns out to be for The Vermont Republic. This more than anything makes the referendum by the Hawaii Independence Party look like a loser in 2016.
9) The federal war on drugs is long over by 2015. 45 of the 63 States have mostly legal drugs compared to 1988- usually as a State regulated monopoly.
10) Populations in the several States re much less heterogeneous than they were 30 years earlier. Populations have shifted so that like very much congregates with like. A Kansan born and bred would find The NYC or Chicago City States an uncomfortable cultural and legal environment as would anyone going in the opposite direction. Supreme Court Rulings of the 2000’s have uniformly upheld State Tenth Amendment rights to legislate social policy within their borders- 1ndeed this trend was the root of both the NH and VT secessions.
11) Technology- very similar to IRL except for the no-existence of Google, Facebook and Tesla Motors and the notable event that the first private robotic mining of a near earth rock occurred in 2013 and the plans for a private enterprise return to the Moon to establish a permanent colony are on track for 2020 five years in advance of the earliest predicted Chinese arrival in 2025.
 

Lost Freeway

Banned
historynutty said:
Far from dysutopian a USA which had elected Ron Paul in 1988 (rather than Bush One) would today to be a far better place than we have..........BECAUSE to have elected RP the Character of the American People as a whole would have deviated noticeably from the IRL USA of 1988. Assuming Dr Paul as President from January 1989 thru January 1991 followed worthy successors up thru today I would predict-

1) No early 1990's Gulf War 1- Ron's VP clearly explained to the regime there that Kuwait is a sovereign State and to the Kuwait regime the need to cease slant drilling for Iraqi oil.
2) Nothing unusual happens on Sept 11, 2001 on the surface but there was a scare which only those with 'a need to know' understand
3) Abolition of NATO in the mid-1990's after German unification
4) USA Military in 2015 numbers around 800K active members (less than 10000 stationed outside the USA) with a Budget of perhaps $300B in current dollars. USA has not fought a significant military engagement since Reagan's Panama invasion.
5) Relations with Israel are coldly correct and at arm's length. Military and dual use tech export have been embargoed since 2003.
6) Nation debt has been on a steady downward glide since 1995
7) Social welfare type expenditures by the Feds were largely discontinued in the years 1990 thru 2002 returning taxing ans spending responsibility to the several States. Medicare/Medicare is in the process of transitioning to private MSA's for all with modest subsidy to senors and low income starting in 1999 with a targeted completion in 2017. The insurance industry has been the dog of the DOW most years since 2000. The States have taken a variety of approaches to healthcare ranging from a bare bones system of State operated free clinics for the means challenged coupled with Non-subsidy MSA’s for the general population in many Plains, Mountain and Southern States to fullup Single Payer in the LA Basin, NYC/Long Island, Vermont and Chicago metroplex.
8) Speaking of the States- their number has increased starting after 1994. Unable to gain much traction in a return to National Power both progressives and business elite republicans foster moves to subdivide key States to further their ambitions- California in 1999 (six new States), Texas in 2000 (five new States), Florida (north and south) in 2002, New York( NYC/Long Island and upstate) in 2003, City States of Detroit and Chicago carved from Illinois and Michigan in 2005 and partition of Oregon and Washington at the Cascades in 2007. Many new States but virtually no change in the political balance of reduced scope DC. 2011 sees the roster of the States decline by two as Vermont strikes out on its own to achieve a vision of green/progressive perfection followed months later by the hardcore true believer Paulists of New Hampshire tired of 20 some years of only incremental change. Four years later two small republics are finding that total independence includes total self-responsibility- a lesson as hard for NH as it turns out to be for The Vermont Republic. This more than anything makes the referendum by the Hawaii Independence Party look like a loser in 2016.
9) The federal war on drugs is long over by 2015. 45 of the 63 States have mostly legal drugs compared to 1988- usually as a State regulated monopoly.
10) Populations in the several States re much less heterogeneous than they were 30 years earlier. Populations have shifted so that like very much congregates with like. A Kansan born and bred would find The NYC or Chicago City States an uncomfortable cultural and legal environment as would anyone going in the opposite direction. Supreme Court Rulings of the 2000’s have uniformly upheld State Tenth Amendment rights to legislate social policy within their borders- 1ndeed this trend was the root of both the NH and VT secessions.
11) Technology- very similar to IRL except for the no-existence of Google, Facebook and Tesla Motors and the notable event that the first private robotic mining of a near earth rock occurred in 2013 and the plans for a private enterprise return to the Moon to establish a permanent colony are on track for 2020 five years in advance of the earliest predicted Chinese arrival in 2025.
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You forgot the rivers of chocolate and domesticated unicorns.:rolleyes:
 

lukedalton

Far from dysutopian a USA which had elected Ron Paul in 1988 (rather than Bush One) would today to be a far better place than we have..........BECAUSE to have elected RP the Character of the American People as a whole would have deviated noticeably from the IRL USA of 1988. Assuming Dr Paul as President from January 1989 thru January 1991 followed worthy successors up thru today I would predict-
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Quite optimistic isn't, almost wankish; the first problem that come in mind is that abolish NATO and basically retreat the 90% of troops stationed outside the USA mean an enormous power wacuum and nature aborh this, expect troubles, lot of.
 

historynutty

Banned
lukedalton said:
Quite optimistic isn't, almost wankish; the first problem that come in mind is that abolish NATO and basically retreat the 90% of troops stationed outside the USA mean an enormous power wacuum and nature aborh this, expect troubles, lot of.
Click to expand...

Maybe, Maybe not. Perhaps it would turn out that other folks are perfectly capable of handling their own neighborhoods. Or you can count RP allowing folks to try to handle their own business as the dysutopia the OP is looking to find.
 
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