TL-191: After the End

[jycee]

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

It's probably just an unfortunate oversight on Dave's part, and one, I think, that is in serious need of correction. You aren't going to be plausibly able to butterfly rock-n'-roll entirely, not with the African-American cultural influences already in place.

Jycee, unfortunately, the truth is, let's just say that if there is a TOTAL absence, and if it was was intentional, it does not add to the realism, but rather, seriously subtracts from it. I mean, I hope this isn't actually true, but if it is.....well.....

What I meant to say originally is the absence of the definition of rock n roll ads to the realism.

The thing is rock n roll, might still exist but it wouldn't necessarily be known as rock n roll. Or even if it exits it might not be defined in the same was as OTL. Genre is a very fluid thing, what we know as rock n roll might fit into a very broad definition of swing in TTL (especially if we define rock n roll as rhythm and blues by white people) or even jazz. So when David says stomp was influenced by swing, it might as well have been influence by rock n roll.

However David didn't really specify about cultural developments until the 70s. So I guess there is no cannon about what happened from the 20s onwards.

We know black culture was probably repressed in the CSA. Furthermore the plight black during the black holocaust probably caused changes in the themes and sounds of black music. I reckon it became quite a bit less jazzy and quite a bit more bluesy by the end. The repression of black inspired tastes in the CSA, also likely led to blues, jazz, r&b, and derivatives not being exported as much around the world. Especially not to Europe. While, in the USA there was probably no Harlem Renaissance, without black immigration into NYC.

So even if the music exists, which it probably does, it is rather possible and realistic that it wouldn't add to large cultural phenomenon as in OTL. At least not under the same definition.

Sad thing, but as I said instead we get Stomp, which for the most part sounds like the big band version of Rock. While, Bossa Nova is clearly something akin to latin pop, possibly also big band style since it seems to have remained popular in TTL.
There was also a reference to a Metal equivalent in 70s update - only defined as classical music with modern instruments. And I guess Fabrika Punk is essentially Grundge.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by jycee

What I meant to say originally is the absence of the definition of rock n roll ads to the realism.

The thing is rock n roll, might still exist but it wouldn't necessarily be known as rock n roll. Or even if it exits it might not be defined in the same was as OTL. Genre is a very fluid thing, what we know as rock n roll might fit into a very broad definition of swing in TTL (especially if we define rock n roll as rhythm and blues by white people) or even jazz. So when David says stomp was influenced by swing, it might as well have been influence by rock n roll.

However David didn't really specify about cultural developments until the 70s. So I guess there is no cannon about what happened from the 20s onwards.

We know black culture was probably repressed in the CSA. Furthermore the plight black during the black holocaust probably caused changes in the themes and sounds of black music. I reckon it became quite a bit less jazzy and quite a bit more bluesy by the end. The repression of black inspired tastes in the CSA, also likely led to blues, jazz, r&b, and derivatives not being exported as much around the world. Especially not to Europe. While, in the USA there was probably no Harlem Renaissance, without black immigration into NYC.

So even if the music exists, which it probably does, it is rather possible and realistic that it wouldn't add to large cultural phenomenon as in OTL. At least not under the same definition.

Sad thing, but as I said instead we get Stomp, which for the most part sounds like the big band version of Rock. While, Bossa Nova is clearly something akin to latin pop, possibly also big band style since it seems to have remained popular in TTL.
There was also a reference to a Metal equivalent in 70s update - only defined as classical music with modern instruments. And I guess Fabrika Punk is essentially Grundge.

Okay, and I hope you'll forgive me for being a little disjointed as I was rather tired at that point.

Certainly, radical changes are not at all impossible, and I for one, would like to see if perhaps a smaller rock-and-roll movement also leads to it being more pure and less commercialized; I think we can all agree that fewer Justin Biebers, Hannah Montanas, and N'SYNCs can only be a good thing, IMHO.

[jycee]

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

Okay, and I hope you'll forgive me for being a little disjointed as I was rather tired at that point.

Certainly, radical changes are not at all impossible, and I for one, would like to see if perhaps a smaller rock-and-roll movement also leads to it being more pure and less commercialized; I think we can all agree that fewer Justin Biebers, Hannah Montanas, and N'SYNCs can only be a good thing, IMHO.

I can agree to that. And assuming that if the music industry is running somewhat parallel to the movie industry in TTL; it is possible such level of commercialization has been somewhat delayed (though maybe not butterflied).

The movies that David is describing as being popular in the 90s, sound like those that were popular in OTL in the 60s and early 70s. When the New Wave, and 3rd Cinema were going on and even Hollywood was struggling with its influence. Movies tended to be longer and oddly paced, as filmmakers experimented with structure and editing, and also bolder thematically, especially in the portrayal of violence and sexuality in everyday life. Because nothing like "franchise-fetishization" of movies has been described yet (despite the obvious prevalence of sci fi as a popular genre), we can assume such levels of commercialization in entertainment - the likes that could later result in TTLs Justin Beiber - haven't happened yet.

In addition, the fact that the mass adoption of communication tech has also been slowed down, due to the more government involvement there will probably also slow down such things.

[Petike]

A question for David, if he visits this thread during the coming days :

Dave, did this older thread give you a few ideas about post-GWII society and popculture ?

If so, then I'm all the more glad. There are tons of great and plausible ideas in that thread.

[JSmith]

Originally Posted by Petike

A question for David, if he visits this thread during the coming days :

Dave, did this older thread give you a few ideas about post-GWII society and popculture ?

If so, then I'm all the more glad. There are tons of great and plausible ideas in that thread.

Im a big fan of that thread.I would love moar.

[Jedi_Master_Kirito]

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

Okay, and I hope you'll forgive me for being a little disjointed as I was rather tired at that point.

Certainly, radical changes are not at all impossible, and I for one, would like to see if perhaps a smaller rock-and-roll movement also leads to it being more pure and less commercialized; I think we can all agree that fewer Justin Biebers, Hannah Montanas, and N'SYNCs can only be a good thing, IMHO.

Fa sho, my brother, fa sho.

While we're on the topic of music, I wonder what the state of country music is in TTL. Does it exist and if so, does it sound like the country music of OTL, either past or present? Part of me can't help but imagine TTL's version of country music being much darker and edgier.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by Jedi_Master_Kirito

Fa sho, my brother, fa sho.

While we're on the topic of music, I wonder what the state of country music is in TTL. Does it exist and if so, does it sound like the country music of OTL, either past or present? Part of me can't help but imagine TTL's version of country music being much darker and edgier.

That definitely sounds plausible, IMO. Maybe a Southern version of *grunge comes out of it, somehow?

[JimmyRibbitt]

Originally Posted by jycee

What I meant to say originally is the absence of the definition of rock n roll ads to the realism.

The thing is rock n roll, might still exist

If it did exist, who would be the King of rock and roll? Elvis would have been born in the CSA. What happens to Tuplo, MS has never been mentioned in cannon.

Also, rock descended from Rhythm and Blues. With much of the black population killed in the southron holocuast, a lot of the big names in R&B would probably have never existed.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by JimmyRibbitt

If it did exist, who would be the King of rock and roll? Elvis would have been born in the CSA. What happens to Tuplo, MS has never been mentioned in cannon.

Also, rock descended from Rhythm and Blues. With much of the black population killed in the southron holocuast, a lot of the big names in R&B would probably have never existed.

There's always African-Americans up north(including those who could have fled the South before the *Holocaust started).....and here's an idea: what about Jamaica? Maybe TTL's *rock can have a fair amount of Jamaican influence(think: Reggae!) as well; I'm thinking that NYC, Baltimore, and Boston could all be possible centers for Jamaican culture.

[Flubber]

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

I'm thinking that NYC, Baltimore, and Boston could all be possible centers for Jamaican culture.

Yeah, because despite fighting three wars against Britain since the 1880s, the US isn't going to have any qualms about allowing immigration from a UK colony.

[Reggie Bartlett]

Originally Posted by JimmyRibbitt

If it did exist, who would be the King of rock and roll? Elvis would have been born in the CSA. What happens to Tuplo, MS has never been mentioned in cannon.

Also, rock descended from Rhythm and Blues. With much of the black population killed in the southron holocuast, a lot of the big names in R&B would probably have never existed.

In IATD, I recall the scene where a preteen Elvis is part of the Confederate "National Assault Force".

If I recall right the scene took place in Alabama, where Union soldiers shoot him, a ten-year-old Mississippi kid walks all the way to somewhere outside of Birmingham to nearly get killed, well he lives. During the Second Great War, I think Mississippi was described as near impenetrable because of all the security for Vicksburg, Memphis and New Orleans. So I'd imagine Tupelo isn't in the same shape as Atlanta, Birmingham or Montgomery.

[Umbric Man]

Originally Posted by Flubber

Yeah, because despite fighting three wars against Britain since the 1880s, the US isn't going to have any qualms about allowing immigration from a UK colony.

Yet not only do they share a common Anglo culture, this project made it clear the USA is integrating all its possessions into a common whole. Jamaicans can immigrate.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by Reggie Bartlett

In IATD, I recall the scene where a preteen Elvis is part of the Confederate "National Assault Force".

If I recall right the scene took place in Alabama, where Union soldiers shoot him, a ten-year-old Mississippi kid walks all the way to somewhere outside of Birmingham to nearly get killed, well he lives. During the Second Great War, I think Mississippi was described as near impenetrable because of all the security for Vicksburg, Memphis and New Orleans. So I'd imagine Tupelo isn't in the same shape as Atlanta, Birmingham or Montgomery.

Wow, then. Frankly, I'd like to see *TTL's Elvis reject Featherstonian ideology outright, as well.

Originally Posted by Umbric Man

Yet not only do they share a common Anglo culture, this project made it clear the USA is integrating all its possessions into a common whole. Jamaicans can immigrate.

I actually forgot about that, but thanks for the reminder.
The other thing I had in mind is, Americans as a whole probably would be more sympathetic towards blacks in general, after the *Holocaust, just like with Jewish people IOTL.

[TR1]

Originally Posted by Reggie Bartlett

In IATD, I recall the scene where a preteen Elvis is part of the Confederate "National Assault Force".

If I recall right the scene took place in Alabama, where Union soldiers shoot him, a ten-year-old Mississippi kid walks all the way to somewhere outside of Birmingham to nearly get killed, well he lives. During the Second Great War, I think Mississippi was described as near impenetrable because of all the security for Vicksburg, Memphis and New Orleans. So I'd imagine Tupelo isn't in the same shape as Atlanta, Birmingham or Montgomery.

What? The only such scene in IatD is where O'Doull operates on a boy who is gut shot. There is NOTHING in those pages that suggests that he's Elvis.

[Zoidberg12]

I've been reading this timeline again David, and I simply love it. Once again, very true to what Turtledove would have done, creative butterflies, great writing etc. As I said before, I truly worthy continuation of Timeline-191. I'm up to the 1970's btw, and I hope to catch up by the time the new update is up.

Originally Posted by David bar Elias

Thank you!



It's taken me a while to get this far. I hope that in terms of writing and plausibility, it has improved since then.

Your welcome man, and yes it had gotten more plausible, not that it was all that implausible to begin with.

Originally Posted by jycee

It never read to me as if Britain and France were doing that bad... They seem to be much more the equivalent of Japan in OTL. After the war sure, three British cities and Paris were nuked. But afterwards they rebuilt heavily and fast, and have since integrated themselves into the EC. By the 1990s they, as a partnership, seem to be a big competitor in the consumer-tech market en par with the US and Germany.
They even went through their own weird pop-culture trend "the happy wave" in the 1980s.

France and the UK certainly have it rough for the first generation after the Second Great War, but things begin to improve significantly in the 1960s.

Good point. I too see both countries going through hard times after the war. I think David mentioned they were the equivalent of the US in Ward Moore's Bring in the Jubilee, but that was years ago and he could have a different idea now. All in all, your statements I quoted are both good consensuses.

Well they managed to survive the first GW. Lets assume the necessary reforms were made during the interwar period. Despite the country still being referred to as Austria Hungary, politically it is probably much more akin to the United States of Greater Austria proposal that was floating in OTL before the outbreak of WWI.

My thought on Austria-Hungary was that if that empire could survive the strains of two Great Wars and the interwar Business Collapse, it stood a decent chance of lasting on through the twenty-first century.

I thought this over, and I agree. Austria-Hungary could have survived under the right circumstances I suppose, and here they are in her favor. With a set up like the United States of Greater Austria, the many minorities in the empire would probably support the Hapsburgs. They'd probably see them as the glue that holds them all together, and that without them they would all collapse into disorder. Seems like a good enough reason to support the empire, especially when they all have political representation.

A lot of them are descendants of in Timeline characters, which is cool.

I admit I was trying to move away from the "no-butterfly effect" rule of the original TL-191. For example, it would have strained credibility to have the same US political figures showing up in TTL and doing the exact same things as their OTL counterparts.

These are both good points again. I agree Turtledove would have continued the series with descendants of the original characters. Also, Turtledove would have through allot of nationwide and worldwide fictional characters as well, like you have David, so it does work. I like the fictional Presidents and world leaders for example.

Just an idea, but mabye the OTL figures we know and love still are IITL, we just haven't looked hard enough.

So those things I said were a wee implausible aren't implausible at all now that I thought it over. I already mentioned how TTL was no real flaws, and now its even more so, especially after reading it again.

I'm glad that it goes well with the source material, although I'm sure there's always room for improvement.

If it's alright, I would prefer to leave this ATL as a standalone project; the primary reasons being a) it's not completed, and b) there is a lot of material from the other threads that I believe contradicts aspects of this ATL.

However, I am not against outsiders contributing additional material to this ATL (in terms of photos, illustrations, or write-ups). If you would like to contribute something in that regard, feel free to PM me with your ideas.

Thanks, I think Turtledove himself would like it. I think he ended Timeline 191 at the end of GWII to let the fans speculate what would happen next. That or he wanted to move on to something else, but it could have been a lesser reason.

Well, I could contribute something to TTL. I'll have to PM you about that. I totally understand if you'd want to keep this stand alone, but when its finished, there tons of events, butterflies and stuff that can be added.

Anything that would be added will not contradict this timeline. If I was going to write an uber TL-191 continuation, I would not change anything here as its perfect, just add. So by contributing to TTL, an uber continuation in itself will be created. I've seen some ideas from others in this thread (World Cups, sports teams etc.) and they are genius.

Anyways, for more events for TTL, this thread could give you an idea. There are some contradictory things, but feel free to change things here and there if you want to add stuff from here to the Timeline.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=185493

I made this thread which could help.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=279220

Did I mention I'm working on new and improved USC maps for TTL?

[Flubber]

Originally Posted by Umbric Man

Jamaicans can immigrate.

Let me fix that for you...

Jamaicans can immigrate after the Second Great War.

Will Jamaican immigrants effect the US music scene? Yes, most certainly. Will Jamaican immigrants do so before the 1950s? No.
Will the effect of Jamaican immigrants produce a rock & roll analog? No way in hell.

Let's lay out some facts from both the OTL, Turtledove's series, and David's ATL here.

In the OTL, rock & roll developed during the late40s/early 50s from a combination of blues, jazz, and gospel - primarily African-American music genres - and country - primarily an American Southern genre - and an all but forgotten genre called western swing.

In Turtledove's series, race based restrictions mean that any analogs of the blues, jazz, and gospel African-American performers, writers, and composers will not have the same lives, opportunities, or impact they did in the OTL. In Turtledove's series, many of those people will not even have the chance to become performers, writers, and composers and a great many will end up dying in Featherstone's reduction camps by the mid-40s. The legally and reflexively racist South in the Turtledove series will not have "negro" music on the radio or "negro" records being sold in anywhere near the "market penetration" seen in our Jim Crow South. And, once the Freedom Party comes to power, any markets that "negro" genres once enjoyed will quickly cease to exist.

Louis Armstrong and his jazz band's cameo appearance in the Turtledove series is an outlier. It's just another example of Turtledove's lazy parallelism and not an example of a large, persistent, and/or popular negro music market in the Freedom Party South.

In the Turtledove series, the small numbers of blacks in the Union, plus the suspicion regarding anything southern, mean that any market for 'negro" music and country music is going to be small. Performers, composers, writers, and audiences are going to have far fewer opportunities to experience "negro" music or country. There will be no minstrel shows touring the Union during the late 1800s, there will no explosion of Ragtime on the vaudeville circuit, very few black/country vaudeville performers, even fewer 'negro'/country records imported from the South, and less of each being played on the radio.

The lack of production combined with a lack of exposure means that rock & roll as we know it will not develop in the post-Second Great War world.

David's time line is almost unique on this site for it's attention to cultural details. He's given us glimpses of trends in fields as diverse as literature, cinema, architecture, and, yes, music. If something analogous to rock & roll existed, he would have told us about it.

Finally, I point out that the member complaining the most about the "lack" of rock & roll in David's time line is also the member who repeatedly tried to interjection a drug legalization narrative into Jared's Decades of Darkness despite Jared's repeated requests that he stop those efforts. In fact, it finally took a warning from the mods to make him stop.

We don't need a repeat of that behavior here.

This is David's time line, one that he has generously shared with us. David has also accepted our suggestions many times. If rock & roll exists in his time line, David would have told us and we most certainly do not need to add it to David's work.

[Zoidberg12]

David, heres something just to give you an idea of what the After the End maps I said I was making will look like. I made these maps of the original Timeline-191 right here.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...&postcount=379

What do you think?

[Umbric Man]

Originally Posted by Flubber

*SNIP*

I actually agree with you on everything regarding you said. Especially in terms of cultural details.

*My* main schtick was actually yes, Jamaicans would immigrate, period - I was more surprised by my (apparently misreading) that Americans wouldn't be cozying up to West Indian immigration at all, ever. I would also suppose after the Second Great War is when the immigration would really happen anyways as America finally begins admitting the former British possessions as states and liberalizing immigration policies.

I apologize for the misreading.