WI there were Nazi Aircraft Carriers by 1939?

[King Thomas]

Two of them. Is this possible without ASBs? And if they did build aircraft carriers,what would the German armed forces do with them in WW2?

[Winand_von_Rabenmund]

It could be possible, if you delay some other ship projects like Bismarck&Tirpitz. But then there's still the Problem of the carrierplanes (afaik, only the Me 109 T was more or less made combat ready, the T Stukas were only in planning stage).
And even if you get the carriers, they would not make any serious changes to the war in the Atlantic. Hitler and Raeder had a tendency to send ships for raiding against british shipping as soon as they were ready, so instead of the Bismarck, you have the Graf Zeppelin sink the Hood, then get sunk itself and all other big ships never leave their harbours again, exept for the arctic ocean.
And when there are two german carriers by 39, the British will have two more of their own, just for good measure

[The Kiat]

1) Of course it's possible. The abandoned that project.
2) What would happen is that the British would sink them. Even if they didn't, I doubt the German Navy would use them as effectively as the Japanese.

[Atreus]

Originally Posted by King Thomas

Two of them. Is this possible without ASBs? And if they did build aircraft carriers,what would the German armed forces do with them in WW2?

Theoretically possible, albiet with some caveats. to have two carriers operational by 1939 (lets assume Graf Zeppelin designs, or something similar) would probably require substantial diversions of resources from other projects to become feasible. just who loses out in this deal depends, but one of the more likely scenarios is that the Kriegsmarine has to lose out in production somewhere, either in submarines or in capital ships. So to get Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser under way in time for war, the german navy is going to lack, say, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (or the Panzerschiffe, or possibly Bismark and Tirpitz).

That said, there are a number of problems with developing a carrier arm, however. The first is procuring aircraft. IOTL the plans basically revolved around a number of modified land-based aircraft converted for carrier duties, with obvious problems. in addition, Goering is going to be ecstatic at the idea of an independent air force of any sort. A Second, related problem is with regards to carrier doctrine. The Royal Navy, USN, IJN, all have been experimenting with carriers since the first world war or thereabouts. They know what it takes to run a carrier, how to fly from and fight with one, and how to employ one (in theory, at least). The germans, though, are venturing into uncharted waters. It is going to be a steep, viscious (for the pilots, at least) learning curve for them to catch up, and even so they aren't going to be on the level of any of the above powers by wartime. And if germany builds carriers, the British are going to respond in kind.

In short, yes, it is possible that germany could have a carrier in service by 1939 or 1940, but it would be of minimal value.

[The Red]

The moment they bring them into combat they're destroyed.

[HMS Warspite]

Basically the Graf Zeppelin was already completed up to some 90% at the start of the war. She only lacked her lighter fittings and equipment, as well as her airgroup, appart from a crew trained to operate a complex ship like her. The second carrier was far from complete, but could have been added within two years according to exisiting plans, withouth delay on other Navalbuilding projects.

The only real big problem for Germany was a clear missionprofile for the new carriers. There was no purpose to construct a carrierforce, simmilar to the ones of the USA or Japan, while the deployement of the British was also a bit too odd for the German ships.
Most likely, the carrier would be part of a long ranged Naval Taskgroup, focussed on gunnery as main weapons to attack enemy commerce, while the carrier was to provide both scouting for targets and to provide CAP, in case of enemy airstrikes. As such the ship was also to be quite capable to operate on her own, without escorts as a lone wolf preying on enemy commerce. This was historically the reason to instal a heavy LA armament of 15 cm guns in twin cassemates, to engage soft skinned enemy surface targets. If enemy cruisers, or heavy units were encountered, the ship was to run away, utillizing her superior speed of 34 knots.

In reality, the Graf Zeppelin could have been ready at the same time as Bismarck's sorty into the Atlantic and possibly have accompanied her, were it not her construction had been halted 18 months before. With the carrier, the likelyhood of Bismarck getting hit at the 24th and 26th of may in the nocturnal torpedoattacks by the FAA, were much less likely, as the likely pressent German CAP would certainly have had some influence on this. (Assuming the further historical timeline was followed for the rest of the mission.)

[NothingNow]

Warspite, BF 109Ts would easily able to provide CAP to the Bismark. the BF109T is far more capable an aircraft than the Skua/Roc, Sea Gladiator or, the Fulmar.
The Sea Hurricane, Seafire or the Sea Gladiator (Interim) would cause serious trouble for them. Ark Royal might see a Revenge attack by Fieseler Fi 167s and JU 87Cs after the Bismark is hit. Assuming the Swordfish can get close enough to Bismark.
In fact an Fi 167 with a torpedo might have been able to kill a Roc or Skua in a Dogfight.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by NothingNow

Warspite, BF 109Ts would easily able to provide CAP to the Bismark. the BF109T is far more capable an aircraft than the Skua/Roc, Sea Gladiator or, the Fulmar.
The Sea Hurricane, Seafire or the Sea Gladiator (Interim) would cause serious trouble for them. Ark Royal might see a Revenge attack by Fieseler Fi 167s and JU 87Cs after the Bismark is hit. Assuming the Swordfish can get close enough to Bismark.
In fact an Fi 167 with a torpedo might have been able to kill a Roc or Skua in a Dogfight.

its a waste of Germany's resources because they didn't have specialized naval aircraft. the me-109 even the T series was completely unsuitable. It had a weak undercarraige that was not suited to the rough and tumble of flight operations and even with a modest centerline fuel drop tank its range for carrier type operations (ie have to set aside fuel for form up, searching for mother(your carrier), and circling till its your turn to land, and ten minutes of combat at full throttle) would be less than 100km ! So think about it... they dispatch a schwarm or two of Me-109s one of them has a troubled landing (undercarriage collapse or maybe the pilot was wounded and didn't handle it perfectly or maybe the weather wasn't that great)... the rest have to ditch in the sea
The JU-87 R anti shipping variant would be ok for 1940.

Despite hearts of iron and the little admiral stories Germany is not a naval power... it has a weak geographical position and its very challanging for their surface ships to break out into the atlantic... (look at bismark's troubles) Their return on investment for capital ships was not good. the men and resources they tied up could have been of great value to the luftwaffe or the army

[JN1]

They'd give the RN's submariners a nice couple of targets.

[Just Leo]

You need people who believe that a country without a blue water port needs them before you turn an insufficient and otherwise prioritized war industry to manufacture them, instead of, say, tanks.

[CalBear]

Originally Posted by HMS Warspite

Basically the Graf Zeppelin was already completed up to some 90% at the start of the war. She only lacked her lighter fittings and equipment, as well as her airgroup, appart from a crew trained to operate a complex ship like her. The second carrier was far from complete, but could have been added within two years according to exisiting plans, withouth delay on other Navalbuilding projects.

The only real big problem for Germany was a clear missionprofile for the new carriers. There was no purpose to construct a carrierforce, simmilar to the ones of the USA or Japan, while the deployement of the British was also a bit too odd for the German ships.
Most likely, the carrier would be part of a long ranged Naval Taskgroup, focussed on gunnery as main weapons to attack enemy commerce, while the carrier was to provide both scouting for targets and to provide CAP, in case of enemy airstrikes. As such the ship was also to be quite capable to operate on her own, without escorts as a lone wolf preying on enemy commerce. This was historically the reason to instal a heavy LA armament of 15 cm guns in twin cassemates, to engage soft skinned enemy surface targets. If enemy cruisers, or heavy units were encountered, the ship was to run away, utillizing her superior speed of 34 knots.

In reality, the Graf Zeppelin could have been ready at the same time as Bismarck's sorty into the Atlantic and possibly have accompanied her, were it not her construction had been halted 18 months before. With the carrier, the likelyhood of Bismarck getting hit at the 24th and 26th of may in the nocturnal torpedoattacks by the FAA, were much less likely, as the likely pressent German CAP would certainly have had some influence on this. (Assuming the further historical timeline was followed for the rest of the mission.)

Well, the Swordfish attack was at night (21:00 hours to be exact) so it is unlikely that 1) CAP aircraft would have been up at all between the darkness and the foul weather (something that would be doubly difficult to deal with considering the Bf-109's visibility issues and the general difficulty the aircraft would have had landing on a carrier in the first place) and, if they had been present 2) CAP aircraft would have been effective in finding the small raid coming in at low altitude and in absolutely dreadful weather (ceiling well below 1,000 feet, high winds).

Regarding the weather and flight operations: The RN was able to barely get the Swordfish aloft in the weather (50 knot winds and waves high enough that the Ark Royal was taking waves OVER her flight deck), and the landing on return was even more challenging, despite the remarkably docile landing characteristics of the Swordfish. Weather was high seas, 8/10 cloud cover with rain squalls, and 50+ knot winds; had the Swordfish not been equipped with the recently fielded ASV radar it is questionable if the flight would have found Bismarck at all, even with the RN cruisers acting as shadows. The first strike from Ark Royal lost three of fourteen returning aircraft due to ramp strikes with the second strike losing an addition three of twenty-six aircraft destroyed in landing accidents, with numerous other aircraft damaged to mission kill in their landings. This was in aircraft that landed at as slow as 40 knots (or a real world 10-20 knot approach speed even in normal weather). The Bf-109 had a landing speed of around 85 knots.

Lastly the inclusion of a carrier would have greatly altered the screening needs of the Bismarck sortie, mainly by creating the need for one. IOTL Bismarck sailed with only the Prinz Eugen and no list units in the theory that they would be able to out fight or out run any warships they encountered. That would not have been the case with a carrier as part of the sortie. Carriers MUST have escorting destroyers or ASW capable light cruisers or frigates because of their different operating requirements during flight operations. A carrier would have greatly impeded any Kreigsmarine capital ship sortie, not aided one.

[NHBL]

I'll leave aside the question of it being a good idea or not, and address one way they could do it, and some problems.

Best way: Get the Japanese on board early with technical assistance, and Germans exercising with the Japanese Navy. This requires close cooperation between them much earlier than in OTL.

Also manufacture some Japanese carrier planes under licence, with Japanese advisors to train the crews.

As has been mentioned, the ME 109 is not suitable for carrier opperations. The undercarriage is narrow--that's BAD right there. Then add in range, or lack thereof. Get a carrier fighter--even an obsolerscent one--instead of something that's completely unsuited.

[CalBear]

Originally Posted by NothingNow

Warspite, BF 109Ts would easily able to provide CAP to the Bismark. the BF109T is far more capable an aircraft than the Skua/Roc, Sea Gladiator or, the Fulmar.
The Sea Hurricane, Seafire or the Sea Gladiator (Interim) would cause serious trouble for them. Ark Royal might see a Revenge attack by Fieseler Fi 167s and JU 87Cs after the Bismark is hit. Assuming the Swordfish can get close enough to Bismark.
In fact an Fi 167 with a torpedo might have been able to kill a Roc or Skua in a Dogfight.

Assuming the -109 was able to launch, and far more critically land in heavy seas, cross winds, and terrible visibility. Given the number of far more docile and less fragile Swordfish that were lost or mission killed in landing accidents just on Ark Royal, it seems likely that the 10 Bf-109's that were supposed to be carried by the Graf Zeppelin would have been expended by the end of the day on May 25, May 26 at the latest.

It is also rather critically important to recall that the German carrier would have been forced to turn INTO the wind to launch her planes (i.e. back toward her pursuers and away from safety each time she launched or recovered her aircraft) dragging the Bismarck with her.

Lastly, while the quality of FAA fighters in 1940-41 was, without doubt, pitiful, it is startlingly unlikely that a Fi-167, with a single forward firing 7.92mm machine gun and a 25 mph speed disadvantage (while in a "clean" flight profile, 50+ mph disadvantage with a torpedo aboard) would survive the attempt to defeat either of the FAA aircraft you mention in a dogfight.

[BlairWitch749]

It makes German strategy which was allready silly in a sense from the Naval aspect even worse. A carrier is a capital ship, it should not be used as a commerce raider... notice the major carrier navies never attempted such folly with their Carriers or even their battleships because the idea of using something so precious as a capital ship against unarmed merchant men is insane (Americans, Brits, Japanese) Not to say their carriers didn't kill some merchantmen of opportunity that they encountered but it was not at all part of their strategic mission.

Light vessels and aircraft are how you destroy merchant shipping in a competant navy (subs, destroyers and the occasional light cruiser) So the German production of Capital ships was pointless because they had no intention of building enough of them to compete with the royal navy. Given the size of the Royal Navy and the committment they had to maritime power (ie if they detected that Germany was building a lot of capital ships they would have built more to maintain their superiority) any and all German production above the size of a light cruiser is a complete waste

[Astrodragon]

The aircraft carrier suffers from another disadvantage a a commerce raider, it cant be mistaken for anything else (a disadvanatge which the twins and Bismark also suffered from)

Graf Spee managed to elude for some time by disguising herself as a neutral cruiser (of which there is a much larger range to mimic). Once the RN sees a non-US carrier in the Atlantic, it sinks it.

[Dave Howery]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

its a waste of Germany's resources because they didn't have specialized naval aircraft.

One thing I've wondered about is WI Germany did build specialized naval aircraft... but not for a carrier, just dedicated anti-ship planes based on land. Maybe in preparation for Operation Marine Mammal Which Must Not Be Named, they build a couple of anti-shipping air wings, base them in France along the Channel... it seems like this would do more good in taking on the RN than a couple of carriers...

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Dave Howery

One thing I've wondered about is WI Germany did build specialized naval aircraft... but not for a carrier, just dedicated anti-ship planes based on land. Maybe in preparation for Operation Marine Mammal Which Must Not Be Named, they build a couple of anti-shipping air wings, base them in France along the Channel... it seems like this would do more good in taking on the RN than a couple of carriers...

Mike Spick describes what you are talking about in "Luftwaffe Victorious" where the DO-17 is produced in large numbers and modified for anti shipping purposes (sort of a ww2 equivilent of the Orion or Bear spotting aircraft of the cold war) His POD was to have Weaver live and Goring die in BOB... I wasn't impressed by the potential of the aircraft. Basically Germany is a land power and should operate as one given its limited industrial capacity.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Dave Howery

One thing I've wondered about is WI Germany did build specialized naval aircraft... but not for a carrier, just dedicated anti-ship planes based on land. Maybe in preparation for Operation Marine Mammal Which Must Not Be Named, they build a couple of anti-shipping air wings, base them in France along the Channel... it seems like this would do more good in taking on the RN than a couple of carriers...

Dave

One of the Luftwaffe 'groups' forget the exact designation, was specialised for naval attack. Something like Fleikorps X [sp??]. It made a couple of visits to the Med and did a fair bit of damage to the RN when it was there. Most famously the attack on the I class carrier that had to limp into Malta. Fortunately it kept getting pulled off to other areas, generally the eastern front I think. If the Germans had expanded this and trained a couple of other units it could have got very nasty in the Med.

Steve

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by stevep

Dave

One of the Luftwaffe 'groups' forget the exact designation, was specialised for naval attack. Something like Fleikorps X [sp??]. It made a couple of visits to the Med and did a fair bit of damage to the RN when it was there. Most famously the attack on the I class carrier that had to limp into Malta. Fortunately it kept getting pulled off to other areas, generally the eastern front I think. If the Germans had expanded this and trained a couple of other units it could have got very nasty in the Med.

Steve

That Group mostly used JU-88's and HE-111's

they had some older naval specific stuff with inferior performance that they used mostly for minelaying... they didn't have "dedicated" aircraft produced for them after 1939

[Last Confederate]

I'm surprised that the Germans never used their Arado seaplanes for anti-ship operations. Imagine if you will a fleet of folding wing Arados carried in the holds of freighters (think Q-ship). Hoist them up by crane, drop the wings to flight position, set them over the side and send 'em on their way to attack unsuspecting Allied shipping, then they return to their ship, get hoisted aboard and poof..."Where'd they go."

Given the deviousness of the Nazis, I could see them using them under false flag. Being a seaplane, the Arado could be set down in the water if it sustained any serious battle damage. For the Nazis, it would have made more sense than a traditional aircraft carrier.