WI: Gotho-Roman Western Empire

After the sack of Rome and Alaric's death, the Visigothic king Athaulf produced a son with Galla Placidia. Now Honorius suddenly had a legitimate rival with blood ties to the noble line who had the full backing of the Goths. The son, named Theodosius, died in his infancy however, and soon Constantius would have the Goths on the ropes.

But assume that Theodosius does not die in his infancy and Athaulf and Placidia are successful in placing him on the throne. How might things proceed from here? There's no guarantee he can remain on the throne of course, since I have a feeling Theodosius II isn't going to be too keen on recognizing a virtual puppet of the Visigoths as emperor, but assume for the sake of discussion that he survives on the throne, with Athaulf as magister militum of the empire. A little line from Athaulf as well:

At first I wanted to erase the Roman name and convert all Roman territory into a Gothic empire: I longed for Romania to become Gothia, and Athaulf to be what Caesar Augustus had been. But long experience has taught me that the ungoverned wildness of the Goths will never submit to laws, and that without law a state is not a state. Therefore I have more prudently chosen the different glory of reviving the Roman name with Gothic vigour, and I hope to be acknowledged by posterity as the initiator of a Roman restoration, since it is impossible for me to alter the character of this Empire.
 
That's definitely not going to work. A really important part of the Roman Emperor legitimacy, even when it comes to Barbarians, was that it would be Roman.

Orestes tried something in the same vein, putting his son on the throne, arguing of a dynastic succession (far more shaggy, I give you that), but his Barbarian origin contributed to the failure of the project.
Constantinople, but as well other Barbarians (especially when they had to gain on preventing a Gothic hegemony, but as well for ideological reasons) were fed up of Ricimer-like puppetisation of WRE, and Theodosius would end as a puppet, the gothic kingship being irreconcilable with imperial kingship :you'd probably see the rise of another Kings of the Goths, if not a small-scale civil war as IOTL (Sigeric or another taking charge).

Goths indeed didn't see this union in a kind way, and it's not really imposible that Theodosius was simply murdered. If he wasn't, it was clearly damn convenient.

The general opposition on Athaulf's wishful thinking was simply too important, and came from virtually all sides.

A little line from Athaulf as well:
It's really to be taken with a grain of salt. Ataulf exagerate the cohesion of Goths (his own fate pointing it), and exaggerate his Barbarian "look". It's highly dubious that any Barbarian wanted to crush Romania for the evilulz in first place, but it's what Romans "expected".
He sorta played on a cultural trope, as did Germans that while passably romanized, exagerated their appearance (as in definitely weird looking hair styles).

It's not like you didn't have former "benevolent restorers" of public order before or after : Ricimer, Sithilico, Orestes comes in mind. It's not impossible that he actually meant what he said, but that doesn't make him original.
 

norse

Banned
That's definitely not going to work. A really important part of the Roman Emperor legitimacy, even when it comes to Barbarians, was that it would be Roman.

Orestes tried something in the same vein, putting his son on the throne, arguing of a dynastic succession (far more shaggy, I give you that), but his Barbarian origin contributed to the failure of the project.
Constantinople, but as well other Barbarians (especially when they had to gain on preventing a Gothic hegemony, but as well for ideological reasons) were fed up of Ricimer-like puppetisation of WRE, and Theodosius would end as a puppet, the gothic kingship being irreconcilable with imperial kingship :you'd probably see the rise of another Kings of the Goths, if not a small-scale civil war as IOTL (Sigeric or another taking charge).

Goths indeed didn't see this union in a kind way, and it's not really imposible that Theodosius was simply murdered. If he wasn't, it was clearly damn convenient.

The general opposition on Athaulf's wishful thinking was simply too important, and came from virtually all sides.

Well I just spent the last 2 hours reading about this and the Late Roman Empire and my conclusion is that someone of Germanic descent would have no problem ascending to the throne of Western Emperor and that how culturally Roman he was would have far more influence than his ancestral lineage. It seems the Vandals had no problem running much of the traditional territories of the Western Roman Empire and in fact seem to have been preferred over the old Roman administration.
 
and that how culturally Roman he was would have far more influence than his ancestral lineage
The problem isn't with culture, but with identity as Roman or Barbarian. And that's the identity that is a huge problem.
Sitilico was hugely Romanized culturally, it didn't prevented him to be considered as a Barbarian by roman elites.

Heck, Barbarian Kingdoms were hugely romanized, and their rulers as well, and nobody considered them as Roman.

It seems the Vandals had no problem running much of the traditional territories of the Western Roman Empire and in fact seem to have been preferred over the old Roman administration.
Then either what you read was spectacularly wrong, or either you misunderstood.

Not only Vandals ruled on a much reduced territory compared to Roman Africa, with the independence de facto of Maur kingdoms on the hinterland but they managed to piss on everyone.

Romans : unability to deal with Maurs, something that propelled Africano-Romans into Constantinople's arms; political struggle between Homeans and Chacledonians (giving that bishops were the prototype of Roman administration, it was going to backfire)

Maurs : Independence of kingdoms as Aurès or Antalas during the Vandal period, probably helped by the religious struggle; subsequent Vandal defeat at the point Maurs litterally surrounded coastal cities in 530's.

Don't get me wrong, at least for Maurs, Vandals tried to limit the damages and to keep the old Roman policy of integration/clientelisation. But being on two/three fronts in the same time, they couldn't really do miracles.

That Africano-Romans came to regret Vandal period is mostly due to the deep incompetence of Byzantine rulers when it came to manage Maurs as well, before turning back to the usual solution : limes/fortified cities/clientelisation.

On the precise subject of Late Antiquity Africa and Maurs, a really interesting and deep study was published recently.
 

norse

Banned
Then either what you read was spectacularly wrong, or either you misunderstood.

Not only Vandals ruled on a much reduced territory compared to Roman Africa, with the independence de facto of Maur kingdoms on the hinterland but they managed to piss on everyone.

Romans : unability to deal with Maurs, something that propelled Africano-Romans into Constantinople's arms; political struggle between Homeans and Chacledonians (giving that bishops were the prototype of Roman administration, it was going to backfire)

Maurs : Independence of kingdoms as Aurès or Antalas during the Vandal period, probably helped by the religious struggle; subsequent Vandal defeat at the point Maurs litterally surrounded coastal cities in 530's.

Don't get me wrong, at least for Maurs, Vandals tried to limit the damages and to keep the old Roman policy of integration/clientelisation. But being on two/three fronts in the same time, they couldn't really do miracles.

That Africano-Romans came to regret Vandal period is mostly due to the deep incompetence of Byzantine rulers when it came to manage Maurs as well, before turning back to the usual solution : limes/fortified cities/clientelisation.

On the precise subject of Late Antiquity Africa and Maurs, a really interesting and deep study was published recently.

Peace was made between the Romans and the Vandals in 435 through a treaty giving the Vandals control of coastal Numidia and parts of Mauretania. Geiseric chose to break the treaty in 439 when he invaded the province of Africa Proconsularis and laid siege to Carthage.[10] The city was captured without a fight; the Vandals entered the city while most of the inhabitants were attending the races at the hippodrome. Genseric made it his capital, and styled himself the King of the Vandals and Alans, to denote the inclusion of the Alans of northern Africa into his alliance. Conquering Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Malta and the Balearic Islands, he built his kingdom into a powerful state. Historian Camerson suggests that the new Vandal rule may not have been unwelcomed by the population of North Africa as the previous landowners were generally unpopular.[11]
The impression given by ancient sources such as Victor of Vita, Quodvultdeus, and Fulgentius of Ruspe was that the Vandal take-over of Carthage and North Africa led to widespread destruction. However, recent archaeological investigations have challenged this assertion. Although Carthage's Odeon was destroyed, the street pattern remained the same and some public buildings were renovated. The political centre of Carthage was the Byrsa Hill. New industrial centres emerged within towns during this period.[12] Historian Andy Merrills uses the large amounts of African Red Slip ware discovered across the Mediterranean dating from the Vandal period of North Africa to challenge the assumption that the Vandal rule of North Africa was a time of economic instability.[13] When the Vandals raided Sicily in 440, the Western Roman Empire was too preoccupied with war in Gaul to react. Theodosius II, emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire, dispatched an expedition to deal with the Vandals in 441, however it only progressed as far as Sicily. The Western Empire under Valentinian III secured peace with the Vandals in 442.[14] Under the treaty the Vandals gained Byzacena, Tripolitania, part of Numidia, and confirmed their control of Proconsular Africa.[15]

That was not some small insignificant territory.

250px-Vandalesmaximum.png


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal_Kingdom
 
That was not some small insignificant territory.

From which weird TL are you from, for that "much reduced territory compared to Roman Africa" equals "insignificant territory" for you?

(I would point, furthermore, that this map if badly made, both exaggerating the Vandal presence in Central Maghreb, and minorizing it in Byzacena)

And, yes, you quoted Wikipedia.
Your quote doesn't, on the other hand, points how Vandals were accepted by Africano-Roman population or how they had "no problem running these areas", unless arguing that "may not have been unwelcomed by the population" equals to "preferred to the Roman administration".

What was the question was more the challenge posed to the

That vandals had to besiege their way up to Numidia, and then up to Africa proper, would make me think that they weren't exactly greeted by the Africano-Roman population.

As we're about quoting :

Abdallah Laroui said:
["Conquered Maghreb"] is the part Romans kept up to the end of the domination, and which inherited successivly Vandals, Byzantines and Arabs : reduced to 100 000km² under Vandal rule, to the coastal region and surroundings of cities under Byzantine. However the territorial extansion doesn't really matter, it's about a socio-historical structure. Master change of race, religion, language, but the same structures lives on.
Great properties in the South belong to the state, meaning the master of Carthage or to his suzerain; middle properties of the North goes to conquering soldiers, and if the share is unfair, these revolt, which is far from being catastrophic for natives.
For serves, workers, farmers paying their redevances to landowners or to fisc, for landowners paying the territorial taxes, who's the master doesn't matter; the part of harvest they have to cede keep growing up tor eaching an unbrearable layer in the latter VIth under Byzantines

For [Inner Maur population and poor Africano-Romans] the society incarnated by the imperial state, or the Church, and that Carthage symbolizes will be synonymous of poperty and injustice; they'll see no interest on it and the famed peace of Rome and Vandals would essentially mean the possibility of a more close exploitation.

While you may had an indifference from Africano-Romans (while giving that Vandals had to go trough a war of sieges to advance in Africa, have to be really nucanced), and especially the Inner Maur population as the change of masters moved few people; it's still far from "being preferred and welcomed" (It's not because I don't kick you out, that you are my best pal ever).

And giving the regular warfare with Maurs that followed up in the VIth, it's pretty certain that these didn't enjoyed much Vandal presence (something that lead Africano-Romans to ask for Byzantine help, giving the unability of Vandal to protect them).

Selective reading of something that is already a selective reading of diverse sources may be misleading, so let's go for the source.

Cameron said:
Like barbarian settlers elsewhere in the western empire, the Vandals
were greatly outnumbered by the existing population.
As the self-appointed chronicler of Catholic persecution by the Arian Vandals, Victor of Vita, who seems himself to have accompanied the Catholic clergy exiledby Huneric, emphasizes the damage done by the invaders and the prosperity that had gone before.
The unpopularity of the landowning class may have meant that the arrival of the Vandals was not unwelcome to some sections of the population, and the invaders were able to rely on Roman-Africans such as Fulgentius, who was later to become bishop of Ruspe and a leader of the Catholic opposition, to maintain their administration.

You'll appreciate the conditional and the "some sector" there.

However, much of our literary evidence for the period comes from hostile Catholic churchmen, and the picture is necessarily mixed: moreover, direct Vandal influence was concentrated in the Proconsular province. As a consequence, the so-called sortes Vandalorum, the lands which they allocated to themselves and which represented a division between Vandals andRomans, by no means affected all Roman landowners

Giving the lack of change in the social structure, I'm not sure this hypothetical acceptance may have lasted that much. It could have, arguably, with no strong Homean policy and better management of Berbers. But the political and military crises eventually took it.

The Catholic hierarchy, fresh from its recent harsh measures against the Donatists, soon itself experienced periods of persecution from the Arian Vandals. As a result, it developed a strong sense of identity, defined by opposition, which was to continue into the Byzantine period.

Giving that Roman identity was, in post-imperial Romania, mostly defined trough religion and administration (important role of bishop on both regards), that was going to backfire.
 
I generally agree with LSCatalina's point, but I have to wonder just how non-Roman Theodosius would be considered to be. His pedigree on his mother's side could not be better, after all. And he would certainly be a Roman citizen, being born within the territory of the Empire. As an adult, wouldn't he make a fine figurehead for a Gothic warlord?
 
I have to wonder just how non-Roman Theodosius would be considered to be.
The poor one would be in a really bad position : considered as Goth by Romans, as a Roman by Goth. It doesn't mean he couldn't "choose" one of these identities (after all you had Roman adopting a Barbarian identity since the IVth in quite important numbers, up to the VIIth century), but that's gonna stick on him, and make him suspicious for both sides.

It's to be noted that while mixed Barbarian/Romans unions weren't forbidden, the interdiction of cross-class unions disavantaged them when it came to nobiliar unions, at the point of mixed unions had to be namely authorised by the Barbarian Kingdoms after the fall of WRE, far less due from an actual reject of such union (even when Goths continued to forbid them, it still happened), but because of the legal issues.

And he would certainly be a Roman citizen, being born within the territory of the Empire.
You didn't have a Roman jus soli when it came to Barbarians, especially (but not only) when federated (Caracalla's edict wasn't applied to them, as pointed out by the fiscal advantages they had). Goths weren't considered as Roman citizens, even if born within Romania, while they could gain citizenship.

Arguably, the concept of citizenship changed in the Vth century, but the core of the Barbarian identity is about a political relationship to a king : a Frank, a Goth is first someone who pledged alliegance to the king of the Franks or the king of the Goths.

The Vth is blurry because you have Romans serving these same kings, without being considered as Barbarians, but on the other hand you had Barbarians with Roman functions (magister militium, comes, etc.), while the political identity was still maintained.

I'm not sure, for instance, that Stilico could be considered as a citizen, in spite of being culturally Roman and close enough to power to be named Flavius.
It's possible, but not certain.

On the subject of citizenship, and Barbarian legal integration in Romania, this text is really interesting.

As an adult, wouldn't he make a fine figurehead for a Gothic warlord?
I could see Theodosius ending as a puppet, just as Libius Severus, Olybrius or Romulus Augustulus.
The reign expectancy of these, though, make me think that a vulnerable figurehead would soon meet an unfortunate end.

Theodosius would be indeed the contrary of a fine figurehead and vulnerable : even if his prestigious ascendency would probably won on groups sensible to dynastic inheritence, such as the army, the whole mixed origin isn't going to please either Roman nobility (that was really wary about it) and Gothic nobility (that wouldn't want of a Roman, critically a Catholic, possible heir)

Without support from Constantinople, Goths or Romans, it would require some heavy luck to only make it up to the purple.
 
I don't think the situation with ROmulus Augustus really is that comparable. Theodosius has a direct blood tie in with the royal family-that's nothing to scoff at, even if he's half barbarian. The idea that a half barbarian with ties to the imperial family could ascend to the throne was a very real one during Stilicho's time at least-rumors did circulate that Stilicho had plans for his son Eucherius, who did have Theodosian blood in him. While they were likely nothing more than that, the fact that they existed at all should be enough to show that at least Rome's elites did think it possible that a half-barbarian posessing a blood connection to the royal line, could ascend to the purple.

You are correct that maintaining Gothic unity might very well be impossible, and that this is incredibly difficult, but I would not go as far as to say maintaining Theodosius on the throne is impossible. With clever politicking, Athaulf could pull it off.
 
I don't think the situation with ROmulus Augustus really is that comparable.
Well, it's not perfect as a comparison, but on the regard of a semi-Barbarian propelling his son to the purple, it shows how much it could be accepted.

Theodosius has a direct blood tie in with the royal family-that's nothing to scoff at, even if he's half barbarian.
The problem wasn't much Theodosian/Balthi blood mix (Honorius having married the daughters of Sitilicho), than making it possible for a Barbarian succession, at least in Roman eyes (Germanic transmission being from the mother, for Goths, he was a Roman)

Theodosians were still a living dynasty then, and between choosing a clearly Roman heir and someone that mixed up Barbarian citizenship and Roman citizenship, as "direct" it may be, Roman senatorial nobility would probably prefer either "importating" an eastern Theodosian or even pulling a important noble as Majorian.

While they were likely nothing more than that, the fact that they existed at all should be enough to show that at least Rome's elites did think it possible that a half-barbarian posessing a blood connection to the royal line, could ascend to the purple.
Or it could point the paranoia of Roman elites when it came to Barbarians, and the sense of an endangered sense of superiority. All proportions kept, it's not because many politicians do believe in Eurabia non-sense that it make it less illusory and baseless, with at its core, identitarian issues.

But I would not go as far as to say maintaining Theodosius on the throne is impossible. With clever politicking, Athaulf could pull it off.
Marrying Placidia, that was more or less an hostage, is one of the things that show he wasn't a clever politician to begin with (as prooves as well his political decisions in Gaul and Spain): he had nothing to gain, politically wise.
That alone could have be dealt with, even if it only recieved very limited support.

But calling his son Theodosius, clearly establishing that he wanted him to be considered as a legit heir for the Empire? It pissed Romans (even the ones that he managed to gether by proclaiming Attalus emperor) and Goths alike to no ends, and made him murdered eventually, something that everyone enjoyed very much.

Again, I don't say managing to get the purple for a child emperor is impossible : late imperialship was a true mess, and it would be doable, even if hard. it's really maintaining him that is the issue.
It would ask for someone genuinly interested on Theodosius well-being, ready to renounce Barbarian "citizenship", and being accepted enough by the Roman senatorial nobility as magister militum; would it be only to limit the "[X] wants to submit the Empire to a Barbarian kingship"

Ataulf wasn't skilled or strong politically to do that (and renouncing to kingship would probably have meant his death at short term), and I don't see anobody else with even a remote interest doing so.
 
What have you gleaned from it (I don't know French, so I can't exactly read it)?

Translating, crudely, the conclusions.

Beggining this book, almost ended now, we made a constantation that established itself a project : modern historiography, unanimous, considered decisive the role of populations called Maurs then berbers in the evolution of Roman Africa in the third centuries before the Arab conquest; but it strangeley never tried to explain what could have been this role, wom importance and aspects were only sketched, often in a dark way, within essays or huge synthesis, more richs in general considerations than in scientific analysis. History of Maurs, of their place in african society, of their relationship with succeeding powers between the first crisis symptoms of the Western Roman Empire and the Arab presence, and their possible responsability in the latter's success, was still to be written down. But we remembered the risky bet that could be such a research project. Even without the usual problems of all Ancient History, this topic had two specific obstacles to overcome that may had greatly limited its range. The first was in the rarity and particular nature of textual sources : greeks, latins, syrians or arabs, avaible written sources were almost all issued outside the berber world and from circles often hostile or despising people considered mainly as barbarians. This first difficulty was increased by the scientific legacy that we recieved. A century and half of educated research on North African Late Antiquity made a really rich base that couldn't be neglected. But in the same time, historiographical analysis unveiled immediatly how what we called five evidence prisma distorded or made harder the use of these studies when they mentioned Berbers.

Allying their influence, these two phenomenas exerced a particularly reducing effect on the studies devolved to Maurs of the Byzantine period, the era that this study had to privilegy as the last before the collapse of romanity in Africa, and in the same time the one that in its initial phase, let us most sources. Relationship between Byzantines and Berbers were almost always seen as only a face of an history that was first about the Empire. And the difficulties regarding documentation for some, an ideological bias for many, reduced this topic to a study of military means used by Greeks to submit barbarians considered as naturally hostiles.

Then, we wanted there, and it was the fundamental base of our research, consider at the contrary every form of relationship of Byzantines, but as well Romans and Vandals, with berbers in an african perspective first, and not a roman, vandal or byzantine one. Without trying to systematically "reverse" history, and never neglecting other social groups present then in Africa, this study was mainly based on Maurs themselves, whom identity was the great mystery of this time. Eternals Jugurthas or disguised Africans for scholars, they were always submitted to the quest of the one definition, that by principle disregarded their complexity. Radically opposed to C.Courtois, P.A. Février own his thesis of the ambigious Maur only trough this shared bias. Basing the criticism of sources on the maur identity, our method tried to take the problem to its source, with much hope as it was accompanied by a parallel hypothesis : the apparent instability and chaos of Berber history between the Vth and VIIth centuries may be explained first by their own structures, and critically from their integration in African romanity. To use the chosen exemple, understnading of apparently really confuse events of Libyan Wars of 530-550 could be based more, according this hypothesis, on a highlighting of the complexity of Maur world on which the Empire was confronted, and on the perception that the latter had, rather than a study about military problems or byzantine administration.

Was this hypothesis profitable? Summaries of recorded results seems at least prooving that it deserved to be followed. After a preliminar critical analysis of the exceptionnal source that are Vandalic War of Procopus and critically Johannide of Corripos, and the elaboration of an utilisation method for this texts, a first representation of the maur world imposed itself, characterisedboth by its important presence in the new byzantine Africa, but as well by its fundamental division in two categories. Based on two of the analysis criterium seen previously and that had fortunatly inspired Corippos's reflexion, the instertion degree in the Empire and the attitude before it, this division opposed groups considered as within the provinces and accoustumed to romanity, and groups defined as "syrtics", considered foreign to the roman world and its civilisation. Considered and written down by a direct witness, a Roman of Africa of 550's, this division broke right from the beggining all clichés on the one and intemporal Maur. The study demonstrated then its relevance, deepeining the original characters of each group.

Began on the syrtic peoples, localised on the modern libyian territory, this study was blocked quickly by the aforementioned historiogaphical obstacles. On two groups, Austuriania and Laguatan, was elaborated a grand theory assimilating many "syrtic" tribes to a "new race, Neoberbers" : defined as hords of camel-ridders akin to modern Tuareg, these tribes were supposed to be engaged since the IIIrd century in a great East/West migration, leading them to invade the most romanised provinces of Africa, and first Byzacena, since the end of Vth or early VIth, beforme taking over Maghreb in the following centuries. Widespread since half a century, this theory implied both a socio-cultural definition of the whole of Maur peoples, and an interpretation of Berbero-Byzantine conflicts, the essential objectives of this very book. Without accepting it or rejecting it at first, we used it at first as a base hupothesis on our study about "Outer Maurs", considering the possibility to abandon it if it was to be unefficient at some point.

And this is what effectivly happened. Critical analyisis and collation of an important lot of sources often neglected lead us to propose a new representation of Laguatan and of their semi-desertic Libya's neighbours. Issued probably from ancient Nasmons, Laguatan and Austuriania, clearly pagans and that practiced a nomadic or semi-nomadic way of life, never went in Antiquity in great migrations to the West. Excluding exceptional raiding in 544-548, they at the contrary continuously searched, and eventually succeeded, to take the control of the Tripolitan, then Cyrenean predesert, where Arabs found them in the VIIth century.

This conclusion, confirming while limiting them, the particularities of the syrtic ensemble, strengthened as well the distinction of "Inner Maurs" relativly to this group. Without early migrations of great nomads in Byzacena or Numidia, we had to suppose that maurs populations of these regions determined themselves their fate, relativly of an original socio-economical and cultural evolution, that was still to be examined.

This part of the study was the longer and in the same time, the most decisive as it was about the less known groups of african society, living in former romanized regions, quickly christianized in the IIIrd and IVrd centuries, and without native urprising between the Ist and Vth centuries. Presence, number, past and critically the identity of these population in Corripus and Procopius' era created many questions. We had then in a first time, by a precise study of their three main representants of the mid VIth, Antalas, Cusina, and Iaudas, be sure of their localisation, then attempt to understand, wondering about their past, what justified both their classification as Maurs and their particular status. The density of chapters that was develloped on this questionary only reflects the complexity of the answer. Any too global view became wrong. On the chronological matter first, as it appeared that a part of the VIth Maurs was issued from populations that in the Vth weren't officially considered as such; on the social and cultural matter then, as a suite of intermediary situation could be guessed in "Maur" country between Afri and Mauri: on religion then, as the christianisation of tribes was extremly unequal. Inner Maurs' past have both the representation of latinized and christianized chiefs as the imperator Masties in Aurès, and highlanders as dark as Frexes of Guenfan in Byzacena S-W; it unites tribes that in the IVth had an acknowledged automony under the leadership of customary chiefs or prefects, and rural communauties agglomerated in villages in roman demesnes. Key of all the behaviroial ambigiuities to people as Antalas or Cusina face to the byzantine power, this past didn't obliterated an essential reality, that was clearly percieved by their Africano-Roman neighbours and established their unity : these populations all became in the mid VIth "Maurs" because they were integrated to a tribal structure. Neither strictly politic, religious or cultural, the base of their collective identity, highlighted by Corippos, was before everything the gens.

A far more flexible structure than modern historiography implies, totally compatible with Roman citizenship, tribe indeed survived in Byzacena and southern Numidia even in the IVth century, but depending on the situation, in two different levels : either it remained an autonomous entity with an official status; or it was only an organisation of village's social relationships, able to maintain a living reality even for groups serving great landowners. Its existance within provinces didn't mattered to the Empire : with their leaders invested by governors or prefects, even official tribes, with roman citizenship, christanized or about to be, were indeed peaceful and probably more or less integrated to roman economical structures. The regular silence of contemporary sources is less surprising, as well the absence of native agitation movements. These were generally rare in central provinces, as the Berber policy of the Empire allied fortunatly strength, flexibility and pragmatism. Rome didn't distinguished two, but probably three Maur categories. Face to Inner Maurs, it knew and tried to isolate a given number of unstable saharian groups, for exemple in the south of Tobna or in Tripolitana. Against these gens, limes was maintained, but most of all reinforced by agreements with a third kind of tribes, placed to the borders. Some of these officialy served the Empire as gentiles units, other contended to enjoy the roman neighborhood, gaining the right to lead their cattle in province, or selling their goods or workforce.

This balanced system was only gradually put in question in the Vth century. Probably shakened by the Vandal invasion, it collapsed only after the 480's, for reason still unknown, probably as much political than economical : inner difficulties of Hasding regime, issued mostly from its religious policy, mixed themselves to an impoverishment of southern Byzacena and Numidia counryside, maybe provoked by a slight climatic oscillation. Saharians progression in Tripolitana then began, leading little by little bordering tribes whom originality disappeared. In the same time, more in the North, first urprising appeared, sometimes to the initiative of second circle tribes, there too with a rising effective of gentes, that absorbated thanks to the flexibility of their structure, a destabilized rural proletariat. Increased continusously in the following half-century, this movement produced definitive effect with the Byzantine presence : duality of the Berber world, clearly drawn, when the inner complexity of each of these great groups, Inner and Outer Maurs, increased.

Did Justinian's men knew and understood this extreme complexity? Our work points that they came in 533 while largely ignoring it. Underestimating difficulties, and ignoring critically the originality of the Inner Maur group, Byzantines provoked a fighting process that may have been wished for by Romans of Africa. The seemed to have first compromised with the gentes presence in the provinces, using the clear will to find a modus vivendi with the Empire.

In reality, referring to a largely unrealistic and artificial mode, Justinian's men worked, as soon Vandals defeated, to elimnate these communauties judged all equally foreign and barbarians. A first wave of conflict was born out of it, whom the Empire managed to take the upper hand only by changing of strategy, and compromising with some leaders. Once the peace established and the roman power reinforced, the prefect Solomon didn't renounced to the schema designed by Justinian in 533 and it definitely seem that these initiatives caused the great wars of 544-548. Succession of defeats for three years, they weren't catastrophic for Constantinople : heterogeneity of the coalition uniting Inner Maurs and syrtic tribes was translated indeed by divergent strategies, preventing every decisive victory. Jean Troglita and the return to realism once practiced by Solomon in 546 saved imperial position in Africa : the byzantine general eventually choose to come back to Fall 533 situation, acknowledging inside provinces maur communauties, that with leaders and particular customs, maintained a relative autonomy.

That this balance, if it had been chosen since 533, would have been unstable anyway, the few we know of the post-548 seems to proove it with the short mentions of Maur wars in the chronicles. Still, the lack of knowledge of african realities by the byzantine power certainly aggravated a political crisis developped since the end of Vth century, that could have, at term, lead to a Berbero-ROman society akin to the model we see then in Mauretania. The tentative of Imperator Masties in Aures unveil the possibilities of such process. Byzantine reconquest then broke this evolution, not wished, admittedly, by Romans of Africa if Corripos is to be trusted. Then was recreated an isolate of traditional romanity in a western world where evrywhere could be seen cultural and social fusion between Latins and Barbarians. The history of this isolated, between 548 and first Islamic attacks, wasn't reduced to a succession of war : it did had its time of prosperity, as discovered more and more by archeologists. But in all arab texts, insisting on the distinction in Ifrikiyya of Berbers, Afarik and Rum, does proove that the byzantine era maintained communautarian closioning that Justinian laws and Solomon strongholds proclaimed right from the beggining.

And still, potentialities of the multiples nucances of african societies, and particularly maurs, didn't disapeared by the VIIth century, as proven by the history of the Arab conquest, and the first appearance of Botr/Branès that achieve this book. Outer Maur submission, Botr, was made in Cyrenaica and Tripolitan in mere years, and since the 670's Lawata and Zenata were associated to Islamic expeditions. On the contrary, in Byzacena and Numidia, in the Inner Maur country, renamed Branès maybe because of the christianisation, conquerors were opposed by regular alliance of Berbers and Romans, lead by greek Gregoire, berber Kusayla and then, at least in the first part of this adventure, by the famed and mysterious Kahina. These spontaneous unions point well all the syntesis possibilities that could have appeared one century earlier between each side.

They lead us to close this book on what should be more than a paradox. C.Courtois, achieving his thesis, tought that the real drama of roman Africa wasn't the Vandal invasion, but the riebirth of a Berber world remained itself, meaning rejecting necessary the romanity. At the end of this long study, we wonder if the real rupture in this history wasn't the byzantine reconquest. Without this, in an easter Maghreb where the roman influence was really strong, the Maur expansion could have lead, not without violence, to a berbero-roman civilisation, original and dirable, as was merovingian civilisation in Gaul. The "divine surprise" that was Belisarius' sucessful expedition, aprooved by a roman society proclaiming its fear of the Maur, broke this possibility. Maybe did it as well condamned the future of the romanity it claimed to save.
 
The issue has less to do with the ethnicity of the "barbarians" and more to do with the issue of whether did the various "barbarian" generals actually want to take the throne.

The idea that the Romans will always reject a barbarian is a very much a modern concept based on the fact that no barbarian Rex or general did end up as a Roman Emperor. We have to be careful about making simplistic assumptions that the Roman Empire is a structure that is set in stone. Let's not forget the fact that a Frankish king did end up as the Roman Emperor during the reign of Charlemagne.

If the Gothic generals really want to seize the throne, there is really nothing that can really stop them. At least there is nothing the aristocrats based in the western empire can do to stop them.
 
The issue has less to do with the ethnicity of the "barbarians" and more to do with the issue of whether did the various "barbarian" generals actually want to take the throne.
You're disregarding the political, civic identity difference between Barbarians, preventing a real double alliegance, at least up to the Vth century. Again, a Barbarian is someone that serves under a Barbarian king, end of story.

Giving that roman citizenship is distinct (and while not wholly opposite, distinct enough for that gaining one make you abandoning the other) from Barbarian, and that imperium was definitely associated with Roman citizenship, you do have a huge problem that is not about ethnicity itself.

You as well disregard why Barbarian patricians/magister didn't took the imperium while they could, as Ricimer or Theodoric. Barbarian "citizenship", and a fortiori kingship, was seen as opposite (if complementary in the roman roganisation of the world)

Now, you're right. There's nothing in the law that prevent a Barbarian acceeding to purple if he was made a Roman citizen.
It's not because he's such tough, that Roman senatorial elites would still consider him as Roman, and custom was as well important than law.

The idea that the Romans will always reject a barbarian is a very much a modern concept based on the fact that no barbarian Rex or general did end up as a Roman Emperor.
It's not a very much modernconcept : it did existed a strong anti-barbarian feeling among Roman elites.
Stilico's fate pretty much point it, but if you need more sources...

Sidonius Appolinarius said:
Why – even supposing I had the skill – do you bid me compose a song dedicated to Venus the lover of Fescennine mirth, placed as I am among long-haired hordes, having to endure German speech, praising oft with wry face the song of the gluttonous Burgundian who spreads rancid butter on his hair?

Ammianus Marcellinus said:
At the very moment of their birth the cheeks of their infant children are deeply marked by an iron, in order that the usual vigour of their hair, instead of growing at the proper season, may be withered by the wrinkled scars; and accordingly they grow up without beards, and consequently without any beauty, like eunuchs, though they all have closely-knit and strong limbs, and plump necks; they are of great size, and bow-legged, so that you might fancy them two-legged beasts, or the stout figures which are hewn out in a rude manner with an axe on the posts at the end of bridges.

They are certainly in the shape of men, however uncouth, but are so hardy that they neither require fire nor well-flavoured food, but live on the roots of such herbs as they get in the fields, or on the half-raw flesh of any animal, which they merely warm rapidly by placing it between their own thighs and the backs of their horses.

Victor Vitensis said:
The few of you who love the Barbarians and praise them at length to your own condemntation, consider their name and understand their customs. Now could they who own the very word of ferocity, cruelty, and terror be called by any other proper name, unless they be called Barbarians? With however many gifts you warm them, with however much subservience you mollify them, they do not know anything other than to envy Romans. And as much as it restrains their will, they always desire to obsure the splendor and nobility of the Roman name. They do not desire that any Roman at all should live, and where they are known to have spared their subjects until now, they spare them to be used as their slaves; for they have never loved any Roman.

We have to be careful about making simplistic assumptions that the Roman Empire is a structure that is set in stone. Let's not forget the fact that a Frankish king did end up as the Roman Emperor during the reign of Charlemagne.
That's actually a "simplistic" misconception. Charlemagne never proclaimed himself "Roman Emperor", but "Emperor ruling over the Roman Empire", a really different concept, not claiming romanity or being roman, but the imperium over Christians, at the likeness of what claimed Constantinople.

Not forgetting that almost 350 passed of course, and that post-imperial Roman culture evolved a lot : fusion of Frankish and Gallo-Roman, for example, was achieved by the late VIth century; with Roman identity being more and more associated either to Eastern Romans or in frankish historiography, with tyranny.

If the Gothic generals really want to seize the throne, there is really nothing that can really stop them. At least there is nothing the aristocrats based in the western empire can do to stop them.
Well, there's the Goths that wouldn't want that. The distinctivness of the identity was important for them as well (hence the laws preventing real mixing being kept, even if more and more irrelevant).
There is as well other Roman armies (whatever Barbarian or not), Roman generals, Eastern Emperors (the division of the empire being more an administrative one than political), and that's already quite something.
 
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