Best strategy in autumn of 1944 in the West

mattep74

Kicked
Instead of Market-Garden, what are the best choices for strategy after most of France was liberated in August and early September 1944? And yes, you may use 20-20 hindsight.

Opening the Schelde sounds fine, but even with Antwerp fully operational in September 1944, how does that benifit Patton down south?

Hold the positions and prepare for a winter offensive? Wallies running smack into the buildup for the Ardenneroffensive?
 

Deleted member 1487

A more measured approach along multiple, logistically sustainable axises to avoid ripostes over the winter.
 
Bingo

There was no silver bullet to bring victory earlier. A few of the improvements possible.

1.Securing the Scheldt in September while the German 15th Army was still moving & less organized. That opens Antwerp earlier, perhaps in early October, but certainly by late October.

2. A more limited or multi stage attack towards Arnhem, or another route into Netherlands.

3. Priority to building up forward logisitcs in 12th AG area.

4. Increasing pressure in 6th AG area to draw German reserves to the south and threaten a Rhine crossing from Straussberg southwards. 6th AG had a good logistics situation & giving it more responsibility while 21 & 12 AG support was rebuilt would have been helpfull.

5. Higher priority to destruction of the German railroads. It took just a few months for the Allied air forces to trash the Italian railways in Operation Strangle, and for the similar air campaign to work in NW France. OTL the Allies did not start a full blown anti transport campaign against Germany until January 1945. Redirecting the 8th AF to assist 9th AF & 2d Tactical AF this in August or September could have created a transportation crisis in western Germany by December, vs March 1945. Maybe sooner.

All that combined would have weakened the German field armies, reduced offensive capability, & accelerated Allied offensives in the winter of 1944-45.
 
cautiously advance everywhere a little bit; build up a strong reserve and wait for the German winter counteroffensive

if the Germans launch 'Wacht am Rhein' - draw them as far west as possible, and then cut them off.

if they don't, push against the siegfried line as soon as the weather clears for good.
 
...
Opening the Schelde sounds fine, but even with Antwerp fully operational in September 1944, how does that benifit Patton down south?

Improving 12 AG logistics in general helps 3rd Army. Also the railroads running south from the Liege & namur hubs were in better condition than those approaching east from the Paris or Lille rail centers.

Hold the positions and prepare for a winter offensive? Wallies running smack into the buildup for the Ardenneroffensive?

Better Allied intel analysis, and a more balance deployment could turn German build ups to the Allied advantage.
 
A more measured approach along multiple, logistically sustainable axises to avoid ripostes over the winter.

Yep

Bingo

There was no silver bullet to bring victory earlier. A few of the improvements possible.

1.Securing the Scheldt in September while the German 15th Army was still moving & less organized. That opens Antwerp earlier, perhaps in early October, but certainly by late October.

2. A more limited or multi stage attack towards Arnhem, or another route into Netherlands.

3. Priority to building up forward logisitcs in 12th AG area.

4. Increasing pressure in 6th AG area to draw German reserves to the south and threaten a Rhine crossing from Straussberg southwards. 6th AG had a good logistics situation & giving it more responsibility while 21 & 12 AG support was rebuilt would have been helpfull.

5. Higher priority to destruction of the German railroads. It took just a few months for the Allied air forces to trash the Italian railways in Operation Strangle, and for the similar air campaign to work in NW France. OTL the Allies did not start a full blown anti transport campaign against Germany until January 1945. Redirecting the 8th AF to assist 9th AF & 2d Tactical AF this in August or September could have created a transportation crisis in western Germany by December, vs March 1945. Maybe sooner.

All that combined would have weakened the German field armies, reduced offensive capability, & accelerated Allied offensives in the winter of 1944-45.

1. Capturing much of the 15th Army would also be an advantage - also very little was done to stop the mini Dunkirk

2. A Smarter Market Garden would certainly work far better than OTL - coup de mains on the main Bridges and more solid human intel - through Special forces team's and/or having rebuilt the Dutch resistance.

3. 6th Army can be supplied from the south as much of the infrastructure had been less damaged and 2 major ports were taken intact - and they have Audie Murphy.

I agree with 12th Army getting the lions share of the supplies from Normandy but only after Antwerp is opened for Business.

Should A Market garden go ahead...possibly but with perhaps as you say goals directly linked to the opening of Antwerp as a supply port.

I would leave any encirclement operations post Normandy - such as laying siege to various ports where ever possible to recently formed French formations or Green US Divisions recently arrived from the States - freeing up more of the experienced divisions to push on to the Rhine, earlier.

4. Regarding 6th AG moving up faster - do have a care - as it was some of its sub formations suffered more casualties than any other US units (3rd Division suffered 27,000 casualties in total during the campaign) so its not like they were not fighting very hard.

5. Rail roads and Canal links and an earlier greater effort against POL.
 
Here are my possibilities:

  1. Have US 3rd Army drive southeast instead of east to cut off retreat of Army Group G
  2. Have First Canadian Army scure Antwerp and the Scheldt area
  3. Have US 1st Army advance through the Ardennes rather than towards Aachen

It might have been possible do options 1 and 2 or even all 3 simultaneously
 
A start would be for Ike to pick one commander and stick with him. having 3 Big Dogs fighting to be top dog cant have been efficent. Put one of Bradley, Monty or Patton in overall command of the armies and stick with one strategy rather than trying to split supplies between competing Army groups. Patton outrunning his logistics several times and Monty trying to jump a Bridge Too Far can be seen I believe as attempts to put one over the other Generals.
 
Opening the Schelde sounds fine, but even with Antwerp fully operational in September 1944, how does that benifit Patton down south?
All the supplies coming from Western France can now be handed to Patton, as Monty has Antwerp to resupply through.
 
A start would be for Ike to pick one commander and stick with him. having 3 Big Dogs fighting to be top dog cant have been efficent. Put one of Bradley, Monty or Patton in overall command of the armies and stick with one strategy rather than trying to split supplies between competing Army groups. Patton outrunning his logistics several times and Monty trying to jump a Bridge Too Far can be seen I believe as attempts to put one over the other Generals.

The 3 Big dogs (Army group Commanders) where effectively Monty, Bradley and the oft forgotten Devers

Patton was OC of 3rd Army and he along with 3 others where subservient to Bradley's 12th Army Group - so he is not going to be placed in charge

The other big dogs are Alexander and Clark

There is no way that any one man can command all 8 Wallied Army groups + the Airborne army in France/Lowlands etc.

Priorities should have been for Monty to secure the Scheldt Estuary ASAP and to conform to the Rhine in order to Open up Antwerp and trap 15th Army

Devers to do pretty much what he did OTL and Bradley to conform to the Rhine (with all Normandy Supplies to be diverted to 12th Army group after Monty had secured the Scheldt).
 
The 3 Big dogs (Army group Commanders) where effectively Monty, Bradley and the oft forgotten Devers

Patton was OC of 3rd Army and he along with 3 others where subservient to Bradley's 12th Army Group - so he is not going to be placed in charge

The other big dogs are Alexander and Clark

There is no way that any one man can command all 8 Wallied Army groups + the Airborne army in France/Lowlands etc.

Priorities should have been for Monty to secure the Scheldt Estuary ASAP and to conform to the Rhine in order to Open up Antwerp and trap 15th Army

Devers to do pretty much what he did OTL and Bradley to conform to the Rhine (with all Normandy Supplies to be diverted to 12th Army group after Monty had secured the Scheldt).

I agree with you and I had forgotten Devers. However I still think there should have been someone below Ike but above the Army Group commanders to work on the strategic direction leaving actual tactical directions to Army commanders. Possibly that should have been Ikes job but Ike was the politicial general and Monty, Bradley and Devers were the tactical generals and there was room for a staff strategist between the two possibly a Ferdinand Foch in 1917 type role.
 
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