Suppose Henry V lives another 25 years?
Suppose Henry VI is physically and mentally healthy?
Suppose Henry VI is physically and mentally healthy?
Henry V and VI
- Thread starter goodguy777
- Start date
Henry V may well become king of France. The trouble with Henry VI is that he may have inherited the mental illness of the French Royal family via his mother Catherine of Valois.
It may well be that the onset of this was in some way stress related so, if that's the case Henry VI is likely to fall ill with whatever it was (possbly scizophrenia) at some point in his reign. At which point a regency will be needed.
However, if Henry V has lived longer he may have taken measures to strenthen the state. While the Wars of the Roses might be butterflied away thwey may still happen albeit in a far less bloody form. Whether England can maintain control of France is another matter. I am doubtful whether Henry VI could have maintained control there indefinately. So at least some of Frace could well be los to a vevived French monarchy even if England's traditional possessions are stil held.
Without the Wars of the Roses or at least aas severe a conflict as these turned out to be Edward of Westminster may well come to the throe on Henry's death securing the Lancastrian Dynasty for another generation. The later split wih Rome and the English Reformation either doesn't happe or takes a ompletely different curse.
It may well be that the onset of this was in some way stress related so, if that's the case Henry VI is likely to fall ill with whatever it was (possbly scizophrenia) at some point in his reign. At which point a regency will be needed.
However, if Henry V has lived longer he may have taken measures to strenthen the state. While the Wars of the Roses might be butterflied away thwey may still happen albeit in a far less bloody form. Whether England can maintain control of France is another matter. I am doubtful whether Henry VI could have maintained control there indefinately. So at least some of Frace could well be los to a vevived French monarchy even if England's traditional possessions are stil held.
Without the Wars of the Roses or at least aas severe a conflict as these turned out to be Edward of Westminster may well come to the throe on Henry's death securing the Lancastrian Dynasty for another generation. The later split wih Rome and the English Reformation either doesn't happe or takes a ompletely different curse.
For one thing, no Tudors (or rather none in OTL form, so Maggie B. will have to be married off elsewhere). For another, it's unlikely that Henry VI will be his father's only son, or if he is, hardly his only child. So I agree, (very unlikely) the War of the Roses are gonna happen when and where they did.
Also, IDK what Henry V's stance on the Beauforts was, but they might not be brought into the line of succession if Catherine has more children (particularly boys) by Hal.
Also, IDK what Henry V's stance on the Beauforts was, but they might not be brought into the line of succession if Catherine has more children (particularly boys) by Hal.
If there are more heirs and if the illness does strike during Henry V's lifetime it may be possible to get Henry junior out of the line of succession. Given he was highly pious, maybe have him "decide" (be told) to go off and become a monk. Also if Henry V lives longer he may be able to finish crushing the Dauphin before Joan complicates the situation.
In any case England won't hold France for more than a generation or two, sooner or later the French will get sick of foreign rule and the English were badly over extended in France. There will be a massive rebellion and we'll get kicked back over the channel as OTL.
If Henry has thirty years to rule as a strong King, and if he managed to secure the succession properly it will likely butterfly the Wars of the Roses. Despite the legend that the Tudors created the Wars really were just a bit of opportunism dressed up as concern for the country. Henry VI was a weak King and had pissed off the future Edward IV, who was able to come in and replace him. The irony that this is what happened with Richard II and his own Grandfather should not be forgotten. If Henry V had a long reign and was succeeded by a better King then Edward likely stays a Duke, that would butterfly Richard III (who wasn't a weak king as such but just pissed alot of people off) and there won't be a Henry Tudor to claim the throne.
In terms of the reformation, you'd probably avoid Henry VIII's opportunism but I think Protestantism will still spread since it got to every other country in North Western Europe and was a growing force even before the break with Rome. If the King at the time is strong he may be able to strangle it in the cradle, if not you'll probably see Calvinist or Lutheran protestantism grow strong and supplant the Catholic Church. Depending on the position of the upper classes you may see it embraced as Anglicanism was in OTL or a bloody civil war a century early.
I think the idea that the French will get pissed off with foreign domination and will successfully revolt is unsupportable, did the Anglo-Saxons kick out the Normans in the aftermath of Hastings? Did the Occitans kick out the Northern French in the aftermath of the Albigensian Crusade? Did the Rhomanoi kick out the Turks in the aftermath of Manzikert?
If Henry V is alive and healthy when Charles VI dies then he will succeed easily as King of northern and western France, he's been acting as King for 5 years now and while he still hasn't completely secured the area he's solidifying his position. Southern France meanwhile is effectively a separate realm and under the control of the Dauphin/Charles VII who will as in OTL refuse to accept his disinheritance and will revolt. As to how the resulting war will go I'm not sure, in all certainty Henry V's control of northern France and England, his alliance with Burgundy and his greater military experience should see him win. However Charles VII was an extremely canny King if not a great General like Henry V and Charles has firmer control of his realm than Henry does of his.
Still lets say after another decade Charles VII is dead or exile and Henry V is ruling from Paris, France is under the control of either French nobles who have accepted Henry's rule and fought alongside him for over a decade or Englishmen who have been granted French holdings. Now the different nature of French feudalism means Henry is weaker and less absolute as King of France than as King of England and the nobility more powerful. So he, Queen Catherine and their children will spend the vast majority of their time in France even after the Dauphin has been defeated. Now when Henry V dies leaving an adult heir born and raised France who the key France based nobles will have known for years he will be easily acknowledged and recognised. Especially if Henry V has resurrected the old French practise of having his heir crowned during his lifetime.
However ruling such a massive Empire stretching from Marseilles to Carlisle is going to be a nightmare, the distances are vast and the communications technology dreadful so Henry VI is going to face internal problems, problems exacerbated by Spain and the HRE who will be worried about having such a colossal Empire on their borders.
Add to that Henry VI is going to be a French King, he will have been born and raised their, his family originates in Anjou and the fact that France is bigger, richer and more populous means he will spend the vast majority of his reign in France and will only rarely cross the Channel. Its not difficult to imagine that after a generation or two you might have a Plantagenet King who doesn't speak English, couple that with the possibility of the Renaissance boosting nationalism and the Reformation giving an excuse some future Duke of York or Earl of Warwick may well lead an English revolt to re-establish an independent Kingdom of England from French dominion.
Much like the Spanish Netherlands which went from being Emperor Charles V's homebase to in nationalist revolt against his son.
If Henry V is alive and healthy when Charles VI dies then he will succeed easily as King of northern and western France, he's been acting as King for 5 years now and while he still hasn't completely secured the area he's solidifying his position. Southern France meanwhile is effectively a separate realm and under the control of the Dauphin/Charles VII who will as in OTL refuse to accept his disinheritance and will revolt. As to how the resulting war will go I'm not sure, in all certainty Henry V's control of northern France and England, his alliance with Burgundy and his greater military experience should see him win. However Charles VII was an extremely canny King if not a great General like Henry V and Charles has firmer control of his realm than Henry does of his.
Still lets say after another decade Charles VII is dead or exile and Henry V is ruling from Paris, France is under the control of either French nobles who have accepted Henry's rule and fought alongside him for over a decade or Englishmen who have been granted French holdings. Now the different nature of French feudalism means Henry is weaker and less absolute as King of France than as King of England and the nobility more powerful. So he, Queen Catherine and their children will spend the vast majority of their time in France even after the Dauphin has been defeated. Now when Henry V dies leaving an adult heir born and raised France who the key France based nobles will have known for years he will be easily acknowledged and recognised. Especially if Henry V has resurrected the old French practise of having his heir crowned during his lifetime.
However ruling such a massive Empire stretching from Marseilles to Carlisle is going to be a nightmare, the distances are vast and the communications technology dreadful so Henry VI is going to face internal problems, problems exacerbated by Spain and the HRE who will be worried about having such a colossal Empire on their borders.
Add to that Henry VI is going to be a French King, he will have been born and raised their, his family originates in Anjou and the fact that France is bigger, richer and more populous means he will spend the vast majority of his reign in France and will only rarely cross the Channel. Its not difficult to imagine that after a generation or two you might have a Plantagenet King who doesn't speak English, couple that with the possibility of the Renaissance boosting nationalism and the Reformation giving an excuse some future Duke of York or Earl of Warwick may well lead an English revolt to re-establish an independent Kingdom of England from French dominion.
Much like the Spanish Netherlands which went from being Emperor Charles V's homebase to in nationalist revolt against his son.
Or if Henry V lives longer and has a couple more sons he might split the inheritance between his eldest and second eldest son. Henry VII would get OTL's Northern France (which might wind up being called something else), and 'Son #2' gets England.
Not sure what his name would be.
If Henry V lives longer he will have more than just northern France to pass on. From the Treaty of Troyes in 1420 to his death two years later he was constantly fighting against the supporters of the Dauphin to cement his claim to the Throne of France and he was doing well. While of course the Dauphin/Charles VII could stage a comeback like in OTL I think it's doubtful that as Henry V wouldn't have the same problems that Henry VI's Regents did. Anyway even if there is a division between northern and southern France northern France will keep the name France while southern France will become Aquitaine or Occitania.
Ok so we'd have Henry VI in France, Charles VII in 'South France' (eventually the Kingdom of Aquitaine and Charles as Charles I of Aquitaine) and John II of England (Henry V's second son, named for John of Gaunt).
Sound good?
I think it very unlikely. If Henry V survives another 20 years he's not just going to sit in Paris jousting, he spent his entire OTL reign at war and if he lives longer he's going to keep on trying to crush the Dauphin/Charles VII who is definitely going to try and claim northern France. Now you might have an exhausting ten or twenty year war that stalemates and eventually forces a partition but I think you're much more likely to see Henry V conquer southern France. Or see the Burgundians switch side like in OTL and Charles VII kick the English out of France though that is probably less likely.
On Henry V's death I don't think you're going to see a division of the Crowns, both England and France were very firmly Primogeniture orientated both culturally and legally. If Henry V has multiple sons the younger ones are going to get big Dukedoms with lands on both sides of the Channel that might well cause trouble (see OTL House of York) down the line but both crowns will pass to Henry VI.
Say hypothetically Henry V lives another 20 years and has more children with Catherine of Valois. Even if OTL Henry VI lives, would the possibility of him taking vows as a priest be off the table? Say he and his family realize that he didn't have the makings of a semi-competent king? OTL Henry VI was often described as being more suited to be a priest than a King, so I wouldn't be surprised if he went along with the plan. Also I think he continued to fight for the throne during the WoftR for his son's sake not his own.
I can't think of a single example of an eldest son of a Royal House taking clerical vows in the entire Medieval Period so I would rule that out. As to Henry VI's character being brought up with a living father and a mother who wouldn't be separated from him by a impolitic remarriage*. Not knowing what exactly his mental problem was it's difficult to be sure how a different environment would effect it but there would be some change. I think it's unlikely he'd be another Edward I/Edward III/Henry V as Great Kings tend to have less able sons thanks to reversion to the mean but he might not be such a disaster. Though it's worth pointing out that Edward II and Richard II both ended up getting deposed so on precedence alone the odds aren't good for Henry VI.
*Though she still might be separated from by death in childbirth as in OTL.