(WI) Brettons migrate to Ireland

Shadowwolf · Aug 31, 2014

What if instead of moving to France during the late 4th century like otl, the Brettons move en-mass to Ireland and settle there?

How would this effect the course of events in history?

It seems to me that this would help a Celtic controlled Ireland to be able to form an independent kingdom that could stand against the Anglo-Saxons.

What do you believe would happen?

Zorqal · Aug 31, 2014

I don't think much would change, except the Franks wouldn't have to worry about the Bretons. The Bretons were Celts too, so they would probably just be assimilated into the Irish people. Rather than help out Ireland, I think it would be the Franks r other native Frenchies who get helped out here, having one les hostile faction to worry about.

Sh3ba · Aug 31, 2014

what zorqal said, but i have been thinking of a TL related to brittany and ireland. unless of course you would want to do it? anyways regarding the question it would give ireland a higher pop (though there will be clashes between the irish and bretons), but unless if they come lead by a central figure i dont think ireland is gonna be any more united(though when the anglo-saxons come resistance will be feircer). which of course is the idea of the TL im considering: have a breton leader lead a mass migration of bretons to ireland. the few that stay are gonna be french fried culturally.

Edgar the Shrew · Aug 31, 2014

The only good I can see this doing is perhaps increased and earlier urbanization within Ireland. That COULD actually help Ireland very much, since it was quite the backwater in the Medieval Period.

Dathi THorfinnsson · Aug 31, 2014

Well, there's a pretty major difference between Brythonic 'p' Celts like Britons, Welsh, Bretons and Cornish on the one hand, and Goidelic 'q' Celts like the Irish. So, I'm not sure that either side (proto-Bretons or Irish) would view the other as 'fellow Celt' rather than '(barbarian) stranger'.

Tyr · Aug 31, 2014

Yeah. They were foreigners. There was little in the way of pan-celtic thinking.
One of the key reasons for the Britons inviting over the English and fleeing to Brittany in the first place was Irish raiders.

The Ubbergeek · Aug 31, 2014

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Well, there's a pretty major difference between Brythonic 'p' Celts like Britons, Welsh, Bretons and Cornish on the one hand, and Goidelic 'q' Celts like the Irish. So, I'm not sure that either side (proto-Bretons or Irish) would view the other as 'fellow Celt' rather than '(barbarian) stranger'.

It so could influence the form of modern Irish language perhaps.

And the reverse happened technically, irish warriors came to pictlands and seized it, the mix of those peoples giving the scottish people later...

Shadowwolf · Sep 1, 2014

Thanks for the replies

I am really curious about the Celtic peoples and the history of the British Iles.

Thanks for the info guys.

DanMcCollum · Sep 1, 2014

As others have said, I doubt the Irish would be happy to see them. If you want to believe the mythology (and, maybe, history) one of the reasons that the Britons invited the Anglo-Saxons in to the isles was because of Irish raiders capturing slaves. In fact, there are oghma inscriptions which seem to show that Irish settlers and raiders were a pretty frequent issue in what we would now consider to be Wales.

Likely, the Irish would view the *Bretons as an invading folk, and deal with them as would be expected. This doesn't mean that the Bretons couldn't make some headway; but, if they did, they would likely be culturally assimilated within a few generations.

Now, if you want an interesting WI; there were actually Breton settlers in northern Spain during this period (from what I've read). Make that the chosen destination and have *Brittany be in modern Galicia. That would be interesting

Driftless · Sep 1, 2014

DanMcCollum said:
Now, if you want an interesting WI; there were actually Breton settlers in northern Spain during this period (from what I've read). Make that the chosen destination and have *Brittany be in modern Galicia. That would be interesting

As in a separate country? Or, as another fractious counter-culture for Spain? (i.e. like the Basques)

Falecius · Sep 1, 2014

Driftless said:
As in a separate country? Or, as another fractious counter-culture for Spain? (i.e. like the Basques)

Galicia is that IOTL anyway.

Sh3ba · Sep 1, 2014

DanMcCollum said:
As others have said, I doubt the Irish would be happy to see them. If you want to believe the mythology (and, maybe, history) one of the reasons that the Britons invited the Anglo-Saxons in to the isles was because of Irish raiders capturing slaves. In fact, there are oghma inscriptions which seem to show that Irish settlers and raiders were a pretty frequent issue in what we would now consider to be Wales.

Likely, the Irish would view the *Bretons as an invading folk, and deal with them as would be expected. This doesn't mean that the Bretons couldn't make some headway; but, if they did, they would likely be culturally assimilated within a few generations.

Now, if you want an interesting WI; there were actually Breton settlers in northern Spain during this period (from what I've read). Make that the chosen destination and have *Brittany be in modern Galicia. That would be interesting

would it be possible for bretons fleeing from the anglosaxons settle on part of the coast and make a brittany there? somewhere like uslter.

Driftless · Sep 1, 2014

What was the comparative population sizes of the Bretons vs the various Irish groups around 400 AD? Isn't that a critical factor in a migration?

Tyr · Sep 1, 2014

sh3baproject said:
would it be possible for bretons fleeing from the anglosaxons settle on part of the coast and make a brittany there? somewhere like uslter.

But the Anglo Saxons were there to be fleed from because of the Irish raiding from the west.

Ulster would be a particularly bad place, there you have some of the strongest and most experienced seafaring Irish groups

Sh3ba · Sep 1, 2014

Tyr said:
But the Anglo Saxons were there to be fleed from because of the Irish raiding from the west.

Ulster would be a particularly bad place, there you have some of the strongest and most experienced seafaring Irish groups

so is there no way the bretons could settle ireland safely, or would it require a lot of effort. shame