TL-191 Fridge Logic thread:

One bit of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic about TL-191 that I've not understood is that in TL-191, given the ending of the War of Secession Grant would be the only general of the United States army to have captured a Confederate army and actually defeated a Confederate attack on *him* at that point (given that In the ATL Buell's defeat at Perryville turned into a strategic Confederate victory). Shouldn't the TL-191 USA really rank Grant highly as a general? Given Sherman was integral to the US victory in that battle shouldn't he have also kept his rank as general of volunteers?

Another thing that puzzles me is how the Confederacy created a WWI-style army and afforded three years of trench warfare. It would seem to me given the TL-191 Confederacy is not described as very industrialized that it did rather too well overall for the war itself and should have collapsed a lot earlier than it did, especially once the black rebellions of 1915 started.

This thread can be a general (pun intended) fridge logic thread for TL-191 itself.

Even better: The CSA, losing a lot of industry to bombing, having far fewer advanced scientists than the USA, taking far more damage in bombing raids than the USA, and lacking the scientific power of the US (which the US has due to greater immigration from Europe and its German allies), develops the bomb first.

Plus: We all know Turtledove makes a living by slaughtering butterflies, but the Great Depression occurs at the exact same time as OTL. Because complex economics are utterly unaffected by a new Great Power in North America, a Socialist Party, and a WWI front on US soil.

Oh, and copied from the TV tropes page:

One that bugs me even though it's obviously just something that Turtledove didn't think about : Emperor Maximillian of Mexico reigns into the 1880s, implying that the Austrian-French alliance that placed him on the throne in the 1860s succeeded due to the USA not being in a position to support the rebellion that toppled it in real life. In reality, there would have been more ripples from the success of this alliance, which was meant to be the first step in a joint Austro-French empire in the New World that would challenge Anglo-American dominance of the area, as well as the dominance in Europe of Prussia/Germany. However, it's never really brought up again, and Austria and France still end up on opposite sides of the World War I alliances.

Well, yes, that's a pretty big one (to say nothing of how the Confederacy *always* in the Settling Accounts series pre-empts the United States in engineering. Even the lost of Pittsburg in a Stalingrad-style battle should not do that much to limit the United States). If anything he seems deliberately to nerf the United States through the entire series.

Mexico losses a lot of territory to the CSA and still always fights on their side instead of contemplating revanchism.

Snake Featherston said:

Well, yes, that's a pretty big one (to say nothing of how the Confederacy *always* in the Settling Accounts series pre-empts the United States in engineering. Even the lost of Pittsburg in a Stalingrad-style battle should not do that much to limit the United States). If anything he seems deliberately to nerf the United States through the entire series.

Click to expand...

I think the US got jets first, but you're right. The CSA gets assault rifles, rockets, and super-heavy tanks (something like the Maus, given the description of a "5 inch gun"). I know they're supposed to be a Nazi-analogue, but Turtledove's pushing it a bit too far.

Polish Eagle said:

I think the US got jets first, but you're right. The CSA gets assault rifles, rockets, and super-heavy tanks (something like the Maus, given the description of a "5 inch gun"). I know they're supposed to be a Nazi-analogue, but Turtledove's pushing it a bit too far.

Click to expand...

See, the assault rifle idea *does* make some sense, the rest of it, however, makes none at all. Even more senseless is that the CSA has enough physicists to simultaneously develop rockets *and* A-Bombs where Germany never did.

Snake Featherston said:

See, the assault rifle idea *does* make some sense, the rest of it, however, makes none at all. Even more senseless is that the CSA has enough physicists to simultaneously develop rockets *and* A-Bombs where Germany never did.

Click to expand...

Even better, I think the Confederate bomb program was in the Shenandoah valley (correct me if I'm mistaken). Read: about 100 miles from Union lines.

Polish Eagle said:

Even better, I think the Confederate bomb program was in the Shenandoah valley (correct me if I'm mistaken). Read: about 100 miles from Union lines.

Click to expand...

Actually it was in Lexington, somewhere in South Carolina. Of course there's a good question as to whether or not the Confederacy could have done anything like it did if the Second Great War starts off from the Rapidan WRT to the Virginia theater.......because to me even with an incompetent commander they should not have held on to Richmond as long as they did.

Snake Featherston said:

Actually it was in Lexington, somewhere in South Carolina. Of course there's a good question as to whether or not the Confederacy could have done anything like it did if the Second Great War starts off from the Rapidan WRT to the Virginia theater.......because to me even with an incompetent commander they should not have held on to Richmond as long as they did.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected. But the fact that the Confederates kept their capitol in Richmond after the end of the Great War, as opposed to moving it to somewhere sensible (Raleigh?), is still mind-boggling. Put Morrel on that front with a few Barrel divisions and the Confederate offensive bogs down right after Lake Erie is reached as divisions are moved to protect the Capitol.

Polish Eagle said:

I stand corrected. But the fact that the Confederates kept their capitol in Richmond after the end of the Great War, as opposed to moving it to somewhere sensible (Raleigh?), is still mind-boggling. Put Morrel on that front with a few Barrel divisions and the Confederate offensive bogs down right after Lake Erie is reached as divisions are moved to protect the Capitol.

Click to expand...

Pretty much, yes. There's also the question of precisely why the Union did so poorly in the first stages of WWI. The Second Mexican War is a whole kettle of fish in its own right, but after having studied it you'd expect the US general staff to be relatively more familiar with Confederate trench warfare doctrine and hence have put up a better showing early on.

Certainly more sophisticated than headlong attacks without any real regard for logic or reason. Even stranger is that Custer's OTL record gives relatively little reason he'd embrace those tactics just for the Hell of it. And when the United States has more manpower and firepower collectively than the Confederacy does, it should quite easily have captured Richmond in its first big drive. It would not necessarily have gone too much further but capturing Richmond is hardly out of the question.

NVM, you were right.

Lexington is in Virginia, so it was close to USA lines (the map in In At The Death shows it in Virginia).


Here's what I don't get about the CSA getting the A-Bomb first:

At the beginning of the Settling Accounts series, Germany was in the lead of atomic research and the USA was in second; so the CSA started from third.

So not only did the CSA jump from third to second (despite the second place team having much more resources and scientists)...but this was with the first place team helping out the second place team.

Uriel said:

Mexico losses a lot of territory to the CSA and still always fights on their side instead of contemplating revanchism.

Click to expand...

The Confederacy helps to keep Maximillian in power. Without them, he would be overthrown by his people.

Uriel said:

Mexico losses a lot of territory to the CSA and still always fights on their side instead of contemplating revanchism.

Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, the CSA bought Sonora & Chihuahua from Mexico, so it's not like Mexico had their land taken from them in a war or something like that. Also, in the Great War, the US attacked Mexico, so there's a good reason for Mexico to side with the CSA in the Great War (and the Second Great War, since Mexico has benefited from the CSA's Population Reduction by sending laborers to replace blacks in the CSA AND the Freedom Party sent stalwarts to help prop up the emperors during the Mexican Civil War).

Sean Mulligan said:

The Confederacy helps to keep Maximillian in power. Without them, he would be overthrown by his people.

Click to expand...

Well, it's not so much the Confederacy stops the Mexican people from overthrowing Maximilian, it's that they stop the US from directly intervening and/or funding rebel groups in Mexico.

Never quite understood how Mexico kept control of the Baja Peninsula. I figure the US could have snatched the damn thing with ease in the Great War.

Also, why was the Californian Patton on the Confederate side?

Ze Kaiser said:

Never quite understood how Mexico kept control of the Baja Peninsula. I figure the US could have snatched the damn thing with ease in the Great War.

Also, was the Californian Patton on the Confederate side?

Click to expand...

Just like the half-Southern Theodore Roosevelt was Union President in 1914.

CT23 said:

So not only did the CSA jump from third to second (despite the second place team having much more resources and scientists)...but this was with the first place team helping out the second place team.

Click to expand...

And the CSA started after the USA (Featherson gives the professor funding when he finds out the Yankees are building a bomb).

And Patton is on the Confederate side because both sides of his family were southern, and ITTL they did not move to California. This would mean the POD is actually closer to 1840, the date that Patton's maternal grandfather moved to California, but I digress. If we assume the POD is really 1862, Patton shouldn't exist at all.

Teddy Roosevelt was already 4 years old and living in New York at the time of the canon POD, so of course he remains in the Union.

Ze Kaiser said:

Never quite understood how Mexico kept control of the Baja Peninsula. I figure the US could have snatched the damn thing with ease in the Great War.

Also, why was the Californian Patton on the Confederate side?

Click to expand...

Because Patton's family was of southern stock that moved west after the Civil War. Confederate victory ironically butterflys that away, leading to a bigger butterfly of TL-191 Patton.

The Baja question is to me one of the most puzzling. Why didn't Longstreet offer them 10 million for all three? Or if he did why wouldn't Mexico sell off Baja also? It's not like Baja has more people or is more valuable (in 1880 at least) than Sonora or Chihuahua. Plus the advantage of only having one annoying country on your northern border can't be overlooked.
Overlooking that there is no way the US wouldn't take Baja from Mexico after the Great War. First it would piss of Mexico. Second it would make a good point for the US to keep a better watch (and boy did they need help in that regard) on the CS navy and other military forces. I can't see Teddy Roosevelt passing up a good oppurtunity to annoy and weaken two enemies at the same time. I can't imagine that Baja would cost anywhere near as much (in soldiers and money) to control as Kentucky much less the horrible cost that "Houston" gave them.

Maybe Baja was left alone so as to shorten the US-CS border a bit further at minimal cost to the CSA.