WI: A more effective French rearmament

So I was reading this thread (and its sequel) and it got me thinking: We talk alot about the better choices the British could have made during the rearmament period in the late 30s, but what about the French? How could they (with the knowledge and mindset they had at the time) allocate their resources better?

fasquardon
 
Last edited:
What sort of rearmament are we going for? Is France going to go down the infantry-based, defensive route as in OTL, or will they listen to de Gaulle ITTL and go for a professional army based on mobile land divisions (what the Wehrmacht decided to embrace)?
 
What sort of rearmament are we going for? Is France going to go down the infantry-based, defensive route as in OTL, or will they listen to de Gaulle ITTL and go for a professional army based on mobile land divisions (what the Wehrmacht decided to embrace)?

The French army being infantry focused something of a myth isn't it? As I understand, they were actually on par with Germany in terms of equipment (ahead of her in some ways, behind in others) at the outbreak of war - it's just that their fine modern mechanized forces got sent into Belgium and away from the fighting.

As for what sort of rearmament, I'd like to leave that open for people. I am sure people have differing ideas on what would be best.

For example, my imp of the perverse rather likes the idea of the French putting more resources into building the Maginot Line. For example, if they accelerated the building schedule as a way of mopping up unemployed men during the Great Depression. Or even as small a change as deciding to extend the fortifications to cover the Ardennes.

fasquardon
 
it's not only about rearmament but also what tactic to use

The french generals made the mistake to go for pure defense strategy with gigantic bunker system at long the German frontier (including the Belgiums also)
That suck up allot of money needed for infantry-based and Anti tank weapons

They Tanks lacking firepower do there one men turret design.
The french concentrate in Cavalry tank against tanks and anti infantry tanks, also had the french generals keep the division of labour between infantry and cavalry tanks. what preventer a effective use.

Also in fighter Aircraft had serious problems do politic meddling
like Bloch MB.150 a excellent fighter lacking performance, because use under power Gnome-Rhone engine.

Alos lack of submachine gun the french had order to late Thompson submachine gun from USA in 1940, while ignoring the french MAS 1938
 
The french generals made the mistake to go for pure defense strategy with gigantic bunker system at long the German frontier (including the Belgiums also)
That suck up allot of money needed for infantry-based and Anti tank weapons

I agree. But the only way the French aren't going to build the Maginot line is if they are sitting on the Rhine.

Also, the Maginot line would have been very capable for supporting offensives, as well as simply acting as a static defense. Alas, the outlook of the French army was not compatible with developing this as an option.

An interesting PoD would be if the French had decided to build the Maginot line with a more elastic defense in mind. So building less strong defenses, and spending the money instead on trucks or rail spurs to move infantry from the conscription centers to the line as quickly as possible.

They Tanks lacking firepower do there one men turret design.
The french concentrate in Cavalry tank against tanks and anti infantry tanks, also had the french generals keep the division of labour between infantry and cavalry tanks. what preventer a effective use.

French tanks had comparable guns to contemporary British, German and Russian tanks didn't they? Or did they have some very underpowered designs in there that aren't talked about as much?

The cavalry/infantry tank division actually makes alot of sense in the period - unless of course the French high command start thinking they need to fight a blitzkrieg in the next 5 years, but at this point, even the Germans didn't think they needed to fight that sort of war that soon.

Also in fighter Aircraft had serious problems do politic meddling
like Bloch MB.150 a excellent fighter lacking performance, because use under power Gnome-Rhone engine.

What political meddling was going on?

Alos lack of submachine gun the french had order to late Thompson submachine gun from USA in 1940, while ignoring the french MAS 1938

Any idea why they ignored the MAS 1938?

EDIT: Wikipedia says it was budgetary constraints that saw them skip the rifle.

fasquardon
 

sharlin

Banned
The problem with the french is mainly political and industrial. The arms firms were damn near sabotaging one another to get contracts etc and with the French government changing a LOT there was not much call for a unified military policy. You've also got a very strong pacifist undercurrent combined with the 'never again' mindset after the massive and horrific losses France suffered in WW1.

You'd probably need to do an aweful lot more than just altering military production and doctrine to have the French ready to stand up the Germans properly.
 
You'd probably need to do an aweful lot more than just altering military production and doctrine to have the French ready to stand up the Germans properly.

I know, and that wasn't the question. All I am interested in is if there were any "lost opportunities" in French military production and R&D like there were for the British.

So, for example, if there had been less infighting among the companies or firmer leadership from the government, what would be possible? What were the low-hanging fruit that people look at and think "how the heck did they miss doing that?!"

fasquardon
 

sharlin

Banned
The thing is the French had pritty good kit. The Char Bis was darn near invulnerable to anything the Heer had save flak 88's, the S-35 was also superior to the German machines it faced. Yes there were drawbacks like their single man turrets and atrocious mechanical reliablity which seems to have plagued the French army in WW2 but...its not that bad.

Really its doctrine and will. As well as replacing defeatist commanders in the army and airforce.
 
I agree. But the only way the French aren't going to build the Maginot line is if they are sitting on the Rhine.

Also, the Maginot line would have been very capable for supporting offensives, as well as simply acting as a static defense. Alas, the outlook of the French army was not compatible with developing this as an option.

An interesting PoD would be if the French had decided to build the Maginot line with a more elastic defense in mind. So building less strong defenses, and spending the money instead on trucks or rail spurs to move infantry from the conscription centers to the line as quickly as possible.

the Germans just by pass the Bunkers of Maginot line by invasion of Luxenburg, Belgium, Netherlands.
and ram true weakest spot of french defense line in simple words Maginot line was useless

Originally Posted by Michel Van View Post
They Tanks lacking firepower do there one men turret design.
The french concentrate in Cavalry tank against tanks and anti infantry tanks, also had the french generals keep the division of labour between infantry and cavalry tanks. what preventer a effective use.
French tanks had comparable guns to contemporary British, German and Russian tanks didn't they? Or did they have some very underpowered designs in there that aren't talked about as much?

The French tanks had Small turret were only one man could stand and operate the light Gun or MG
while the Germans Tanks had bigger turret with bigger gun AND MG operated by several persons.


Originally Posted by Michel Van View Post
Also in fighter Aircraft had serious problems do politic meddling
like Bloch MB.150 a excellent fighter lacking performance, because use under power Gnome-Rhone engine.
What political meddling was going on?

Marcel Bloch needed more powerful engine for MB.150 but Ministry of defense insist on Gnome-Rhone, who hell of problem to get engine running.
Bloch wanted build the engine for MB.150 in his own factory but Ministry of defense refused and to make matter worst Ministry of industry nationalized "Société des Avions Marcel Bloch"
(after war Bloch change his name into Marcel Dassault and founded Dassault Aviation S.A.)

Any idea why they ignored the MAS 1938?

EDIT: Wikipedia says it was budgetary constraints that saw them skip the rifle.

main reason was the french generals had no idea what to do with this newfangled "submachine gun" they insist on riffles and heavy machine guns.
this with combination of budgetary constraints because construction of useless Maginot line...
 
The thing is the French had pritty good kit. The Char Bis was darn near invulnerable to anything the Heer had save flak 88's, the S-35 was also superior to the German machines it faced. Yes there were drawbacks like their single man turrets and atrocious mechanical reliablity which seems to have plagued the French army in WW2 but...its not that bad.

Really its doctrine and will. As well as replacing defeatist commanders in the army and airforce.

So in your view, there were no improvements to procurement decisions, research funding or industrial organization that could be made?

fasquardon
 
the Germans just by pass the Bunkers of Maginot line by invasion of Luxenburg, Belgium, Netherlands.
and ram true weakest spot of french defense line in simple words Maginot line was useless
This is quite incorrect. Without any fortification in the south they would have to spread their troops extremely thin along the border. The defeat was caused by an ill advised rush into Belgium (Dyle Plan) by the best French troops rather than a more conservative approach. One can argue that fewer troops should have been stationed along the Maginot, and that might have worked but leaving the border without fortifications would've been foolish.
 

Driftless

Donor
French tanks had comparable guns to contemporary British, German and Russian tanks didn't they? Or did they have some very underpowered designs in there that aren't talked about as much?

Yes and no. Some of the tank guns were effective:
* 47mm SA 35 as used on the Somua S35 & Char B1's

But this gun was deployed on too many tanks to effectively counter German tanks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puteaux_SA_18
The Puteaux SA 18 was a French single-shot, breech-loading cannon, used from World War I onward, primarily mounted on combat vehicles.

It was a simple, reliable weapon with a high rate of fire made possible by a semi-automatic breech system . It was primarily intended to be used against infantry and machine-gun nests, due to its low muzzle velocity which proscribed anti-armour use.
The gun was used on the Renault R-35, Hotchkiss H-35, H-38, & FCM-36; which were used in large numbers in 1940

Change the doctrine to allow for more flexibility of use - the situation on a battlefield changes.... Allow for a bigger turret, that can more easily adapt to larger guns, such as the effective 47mm Sa 37, which was a very good AT gun for it's day.
 
Last edited:
Yes and no. Some of the tank guns were effective:
* 47mm SA 35 as used on the Somua S35 & Char B1's

But this gun was deployed on too many tanks to effectively counter German tanks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puteaux_SA_18

The gun was used on the Renault R-35, Hotchkiss H-35, H-38, & FCM-36; which were used in large numbers in 1940

Change the doctrine to allow for more flexibility of use - the situation on a battlefield changes.... Allow for a bigger turret, that can more easily adapt to larger guns, such as the effective 47mm Sa 37, which was a very good AT gun for it's day.

Were there any guns that had better AT performance and could fit in the Puteaux SA 18's turret ring?

And were any of the tanks you mention there able to take larger turrets?

Curious if this is something that could be fixed with a practical upgrade program, or if the R-35, H35, H-38 and FCM-36 were basically obsolete designs by the late 30s.

Mind you, would gun production be able to keep up with such an upgrade program AND building enough Somuas and Char B1s? Upgrading designs that will be obsolete anyway within a year of actual wartime might not be a good use of resources.

fasquardon
 
If the French have money to spare, as the British did in the other thread, France could have scrapped the obsolete Bearn and had 60,000 tons to build aircraft carriers with.
 
If the French have money to spare, as the British did in the other thread, France could have scrapped the obsolete Bearn and had 60,000 tons to build aircraft carriers with.

I don't think the French did have money to spare, though I can think of a few easy PoDs to change the trajectory of their economy. (Though if anyone knows more about the details of French military expenditure, please do speak up.)

Even if they did find the money, why would the French need an aircraft carrier? The naval needs of France were for cruisers and submarines - tools with which to protect French trade or attack other peoples' trade. The areas in which the French were really worried about fighting enemy battle fleets were the North Sea and the Mediterranean, and those were both regions where land-based airplanes would probably be more practical. A carrier is a big fat target in such closed seas.

Also, building a big carrier might alarm the British.

fasquardon
 
the Germans just by pass the Bunkers of Maginot line by invasion of Luxenburg, Belgium, Netherlands.
and ram true weakest spot of french defense line in simple words Maginot line was useless

The Maginot line wasn't supposed to stop the German everywhere and it worked perfectly. The maginot line was here to shorten the frontlines and allow the French to concentrate their troops in Belgium where they expected to encounter the german army head on. If the German didn't change their plans at the last minute due to the rash of a german plane in Belgium the battle of France wouldn't have been fought because the German army would probably have been stopped in Belgium.

The French tanks had Small turret were only one man could stand and operate the light Gun or MG
while the Germans Tanks had bigger turret with bigger gun AND MG operated by several persons.

The b1 bis had a 2 man turret and a turret gun bigger and better than every German tank gun except for the short 75mm of the Pz IV that wasn't supposed to fight other tanks. The larger turret ring of the S-35 allowed for one of the man to help the tank commander. No B1 bis was destroyed by a german tank outside the Pz IV and everytime the german encountered those they needed to fire their artillery at them or call in the Stukas.

Marcel Bloch needed more powerful engine for MB.150 but Ministry of defense insist on Gnome-Rhone, who hell of problem to get engine running.
Bloch wanted build the engine for MB.150 in his own factory but Ministry of defense refused and to make matter worst Ministry of industry nationalized "Société des Avions Marcel Bloch"
(after war Bloch change his name into Marcel Dassault and founded Dassault Aviation S.A.)

The Aircraft industry was completely inefficient before the government nationalized it. After that production increased and better design started to appear.

main reason was the french generals had no idea what to do with this newfangled "submachine gun" they insist on riffles and heavy machine guns.
this with combination of budgetary constraints because construction of useless Maginot line...

No nations at that point had SMG except for the Germans and even the Wehrmacht didn't have a lot of them during the invasion of Poland. In this regard the French weren't worse than any other belligerent.

Were there any guns that had better AT performance and could fit in the Puteaux SA 18's turret ring?

And were any of the tanks you mention there able to take larger turrets?

Yes. The 37mm SA38 was starting the replace the 37mm SA18 on the R40 (upgrade of the R35 that entered service in 1940) and on the H39 (not the official name, but a good way to denominate the H38 with the SA-38 gun). It was the same gun but longer and had thus better AT capacity. The French were also developing APDS ammo for their gun and a 37mm round was supposed to be introduced in 1940. This would have meant the 37mm SA 38 would have been able to penetrate any German tanks.

Curious if this is something that could be fixed with a practical upgrade program, or if the R-35, H35, H-38 and FCM-36 were basically obsolete designs by the late 30s.

The small infantry tanks were not really upgradeable because they were too small to allow for a bigger gun in a turret. The R40 and H39 would have been the last versions of these tanks. In fact it was pretty much the only problem for the H39 given that in the end it was as fast as the Pz III and better armored. With APDS ammo it would have been able to engage the Pz III before it could even ding it's armor.

Mind you, would gun production be able to keep up with such an upgrade program AND building enough Somuas and Char B1s? Upgrading designs that will be obsolete anyway within a year of actual wartime might not be a good use of resources.

fasquardon

The guns on the Somuas and the B1s were not the same as on the smaller tanks and i don't think the 47mm could have been fitted on the small APX-R turret.

Now for my two cents about how the French could have had better procurement.

1/ Don't separate the Air Force from the Army. The defeat of 1940 can almost single handedly attributed to that decision. Due to the Air Force independence, it completely ignored the role that it was actually needed to do. It focused on long range bombers that fitted it's Douhetist PoV. If it has stayed in the Army, the Air force would have been forced to focus on usefull things : fighters and CAS aircrafts. The AF barely run any CAS support mission during the whole battle of France while the Stukas were left free to bomb French tanks.

2/ actually replace the anti aircraft artillery so the divisions have something to defend themselves against aircrafts.

3/ Make someone realise that putting a larger turret on the B1 would allow the tank to have the 75mm in it's turret.

4/ accelerate the development of the various mortars. If the procurement of the French mortars would have been over when Germany invaded the French infantry would have had as much indirect firepower as the German infantry.

5/ Having radios. Seriously, not having radios is one of the biggest problems some French tanks had.

6/ Avoid the Disarmament conference fuck up. It slowed the B1 development too much.
 
The guns on the Somuas and the B1s were not the same as on the smaller tanks and i don't think the 47mm could have been fitted on the small APX-R turret.

If modified there was a 47mm that could have been used with the apx turret,the Schneider 47mm anti-tank gun,which was considered by Romania for there upgrade for R-35.
 
1/ Don't separate the Air Force from the Army. The defeat of 1940 can almost single handedly attributed to that decision. Due to the Air Force independence, it completely ignored the role that it was actually needed to do. It focused on long range bombers that fitted it's Douhetist PoV. If it has stayed in the Army, the Air force would have been forced to focus on usefull things : fighters and CAS aircrafts. The AF barely run any CAS support mission during the whole battle of France while the Stukas were left free to bomb French tanks.

Any idea why they decided to separate them in the first place?

2/ actually replace the anti aircraft artillery so the divisions have something to defend themselves against aircrafts.

Were they considering this at all in OTL, or was it one of those things that was overlooked in the doctrine?

3/ Make someone realise that putting a larger turret on the B1 would allow the tank to have the 75mm in it's turret.

Surely that requires a high degree of foresight? Mid-war tanks were much faster, more heavily armored and more heavily gunned than anyone pre-war was expecting. And it sounds like with the developments they were making, the guns they were already using would have actually served them quite well, at least until 1942 or so...

4/ accelerate the development of the various mortars. If the procurement of the French mortars would have been over when Germany invaded the French infantry would have had as much indirect firepower as the German infantry.

Was there any particular reason why mortar development was as slow as it was?

5/ Having radios. Seriously, not having radios is one of the biggest problems some French tanks had.

Amen.

Did French industry produce any compact and rugged radios by the late 30s?

6/ Avoid the Disarmament conference fuck up. It slowed the B1 development too much.

What is the story behind this?

And very interesting post! I'm impressed with your knowledge.

fasquardon
 

Saphroneth

Banned
This is quite incorrect. Without any fortification in the south they would have to spread their troops extremely thin along the border. The defeat was caused by an ill advised rush into Belgium (Dyle Plan) by the best French troops rather than a more conservative approach. One can argue that fewer troops should have been stationed along the Maginot, and that might have worked but leaving the border without fortifications would've been foolish.
The whole point of the Maginot Line was, basically, to make it so the fighting was in Belgium as opposed to France.
All it would take - all it would take - would be for the French to advance one river line less and to reinforce their hinge. Just doing the one-river-line-less is what makes Blunted Sickle Blunted Sickle.

That said, there's a few other things that could be done. Accelerate HEAT a bit, for instance - that was a French invention. Just a bit sooner, so there's HEAT shells for 75mm artillery guns, and German tanks will be wheat before the scythe to artillery.
 
Top