AHC: Jewish Mongol Hordes

Todays challenge is I think a weird, and yet also completely awesome one. Maybe. I'll leave that to the people participating to decide that.

The goal of this AHC is to have 1 or more of the Mongol Hordes (It can be Genghis Khan's Empire, or any of the various hordes that fractured off of it.) be predominantly Jewish. Please list all the effects you think this would have on the Hordes and their neighbors.

err mongols conquer levant. A mongol prince gets smitten with loveand marries a native who happens to be jewish. Since the mothers determine the religion in Judaism sons born to them are technichally jewish.

Mongol empire splits like otl
Tis prince frms a Khanate in Levant. Wallah a Mongol Horde that's Jewish.

Its very implausible but hey its not asb.

Fredrick II Barbarossa said:

err mongols conquer levant. A mongol prince gets smitten with loveand marries a native who happens to be jewish. Since the mothers determine the religion in Judaism sons born to them are technichally jewish.

Mongol empire splits like otl
Tis prince frms a Khanate in Levant. Wallah a Mongol Horde that's Jewish.

Its very implausible but hey its not asb.

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They already had Kaifeng Jews in China, and it's not hard to make some of them wander north into Mongolia...

This excellent TL explores the possibility of Jewish Mongol hordes: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=252448

'Ezana said:

There were already some Jewish tribes in Mongolia, which makes the whole scenario much easier. Alternatively, you could tap into the Kaifeng Jewish population in China.

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seriously jewish tribes in Mongolia then it shouldn't be too difficult. Mongols were meritocratic yes so lets say one of the members of such a tribe distinguishes himself in battle and rises up the mongol ranks and becomes a subodei type general who becomes close witth Genghis. Then once Genghis dies he throws his support behind Ogedei and continues winning victories across the world. He marries into the royal family and then he conquers some region under Ogedeis orders. Ogedei dies and this general declares his own khanate after having a fallout with Guyuk or Mogke.

Wow, Arab-Jewish hatred is going to be insane in this timeline....

Fredrick II Barbarossa said:

seriously jewish tribes in Mongolia then it shouldn't be too difficult. Mongols were meritocratic yes so lets say one of the members of such a tribe distinguishes himself in battle and rises up the mongol ranks and becomes a subodei type general who becomes close witth Genghis. Then once Genghis dies he throws his support behind Ogedei and continues winning victories across the world. He marries into the royal family and then he conquers some region under Ogedeis orders. Ogedei dies and this general declares his own khanate after having a fallout with Guyuk or Mogke.

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I did some research and found that the only Jews in the region were the Chinese ones. My bad. (although I swear that I read about actual Mongolian Jews somewhere, help would be appreciated with finding that...)

'Ezana said:

I did some research and found that the only Jews in the region were the Chinese ones. My bad. (although I swear that I read about actual Mongolian Jews somewhere, help would be appreciated with finding that...)

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still maybe a Chinese jewish person shares yak milk with a distinguished mongol general while fighting in campaign and becomes a blood brother. than the scenario above plays out?

This is an amazing mental image.

Benyamin Khan!

As for actually bringing this about, could we use the Khazars as a model? I'm not to familiar with how they came to convert, but surely it's applicable.

Fredrick II Barbarossa said:

still maybe a Chinese jewish person shares yak milk with a distinguished mongol general while fighting in campaign and becomes a blood brother. than the scenario above plays out?

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Due to a miracle, Jewish Khazar Khanate survives the destruction by the Rus and later are incoparated into the Mongol Empire. Jewish Khazar envoys convince approaching Mongols to adapt Judaism. Maybe they even send a delegation to Karakorum ?

HonestAbe said:

This is an amazing mental image.

Benyamin Khan!

As for actually bringing this about, could we use the Khazars as a model? I'm not to familiar with how they came to convert, but surely it's applicable.

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Khazars chose a religion both Christians and Muslims could accept and treat with respectably without actually having to make the choice between Christianity and Islam, because if they did that they would risk their relations with the other. The whole Tengri/Steppe Shamanism/Sky-Heaven Worship actually fit into that frame of thinking fairly well as well, since often times foreign religions in foreign languages were translated using native terms of concepts. A little how Buddhism was explained almost entirely within Taoist concepts in China. Still distinct, but framed in a way that Judaism satisfied, though not entirely pleased, their native population as well as their neighbors.

Maybe if the Khazar Khanate tries and succeeds to Judaize the western steppe, instead of OTL where conversion was limited to some of the aristocracy, and the state made no real effort to convert anyone else.

This PoD is centuries before the Mongol conquest, mind you; the Mongols tried religious neutrality for a while and ultimately converted to the religion of those they conquered, and there simply isn't a Jewish population anywhere in the 13th century large enough to pull any Mongol ruler their way.

But if the Khazars were to have a lasting religious impact, and the Mongolians still united (albeit with a PoD this far back, Temujin would surely be butterflied) the lands which OTL became the Ulus of Jochi might form the base of a successor state, and if the local Turkic nomads remained Jewish the Khan might follow their lead.

'Ezana said:

I did some research and found that the only Jews in the region were the Chinese ones. My bad. (although I swear that I read about actual Mongolian Jews somewhere, help would be appreciated with finding that...)

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But certainly Jewish traders in Karakorum. Both Chinese and Middle Eastern Jews.
Tribes? No. As much as the vision of badass Mongol Jewish horse archers sends an electric thrill up my spine...

I wish Gosing's "Horde of the Lord" TL had continued...

Herzen's love-child said:

But certainly Jewish traders in Karakorum. Both Chinese and Middle Eastern Jews.
Tribes? No. As much as the vision of badass Mongol Jewish horse archers sends an electric thrill up my spine...

I wish Gosing's "Horde of the Lord" TL had continued...

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Could it be possible that someone else could try and continue it?

I guess it might be possible for a group to travel east during the diaspora with a series of random events landing them in Mongolia. They intermarry there and after several generation have legends of the promised land to the west. Then some guy gets born who unites them and they start rampaging to reclaim the lost homeland.

Rainbow Sparkle said:

Could it be possible that someone else could try and continue it?

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That would between the person interested and the original author.

assasin said:

I guess it might be possible for a group to travel east during the diaspora with a series of random events landing them in Mongolia. They intermarry there and after several generation have legends of the promised land to the west. Then some guy gets born who unites them and they start rampaging to reclaim the lost homeland.

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Perhaps a Jewish tribe from a longer lasting Khazaria. (Assuming that there was such a thing -- all we know really is that part of the ruling strata of Khazaria converted)

Rainbow Sparkle said:

Todays challenge is I think a weird, and yet also completely awesome one. Maybe. I'll leave that to the people participating to decide that.

The goal of this AHC is to have 1 or more of the Mongol Hordes (It can be Genghis Khan's Empire, or any of the various hordes that fractured off of it.) be predominantly Jewish. Please list all the effects you think this would have on the Hordes and their neighbors.

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Would it be called the Goldenberg Horde

It is hard to see Jewish tribes in Mongolia by time of Temujin's birth and his ascension to Great Khaan.

But you don't need to have Jewish tribe. You just need to Oeulen's (temujin's mother) tribes nobles are practicing Judaism. You always can interpret Monke tengri as Abrahamic God.

Temujin promises to Oeulen, he will free promised land of Jews and establish Jews State.

Through Oeulen's influence and instruction, Ogodei is married to someone from Oeulen's tribe, who is also practitioner of Judaism.

One of last will of Genghis Khaan is establish Jews State and protect it. So after Ogodei becomes Great Khaan, he starts campaign to Middle East instead of Europe. So by 1240's there will be established Jews State - " David's Khanate" named after Ogodei's son David Khan of Jews state and practitioner of Judaism.

David's Khanate is compromised by OTL - Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Hatay (from Turkey) and Isreal as well as includes Sinai.
After its establishment many Jews come back to David's Khanate.

Fredrick II Barbarossa said:

err mongols conquer levant. A mongol prince gets smitten with loveand marries a native who happens to be jewish. Since the mothers determine the religion in Judaism sons born to them are technichally jewish...
Its very implausible but hey its not asb.

Click to expand...

MonAngel said:

You just need to Oeulen's (temujin's mother) tribes nobles are practicing Judaism.

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You see if we really believe in proselytizing Judaism it does not actually matter whether it was Temujin's mother or father who became jewish, or his grandfather or grandmother.
Nothing wrong with it. Just very implausible.

But we all know that it's better be mother or grandmother, meaning Jewish bloodline from mother's side. But here we mean Judaism AND bloodline.
Here we should stop and understand an important thing about the Mongols of the 12-th and 13-th centuries:
- the Mongols were not monogamous, but there was such thing as a principal wife and she must be from a "proper" bloodline. For a noble Mongol proper bloodline was a "steppe" bloodline, meaning no Chinese, no Ephiopian, no Greek, no Vietnamese blood, actually no other blood but pure blood of the steppe Mongols and other steppe tribes close to the "Mongol" tribal core.
And sorry, but no Jewish bloodline. Sorry again, but no.
You know a member of Borijin clan might have a lot of wives, but the only wife that mattered was the principal wife and her children.

So a Borijin, a son of an "improper" (Jewish by blood) mother uniting the Mongols and becoming the Chengizz Khan? - No, I do not buy it.
Grandson of Chengizz Khan born by a Jewish (by blood) mother becoming a Khan and establishing his Khanate? - No, the title "Khan" is only for Borigins borne by a principal wife of proper steppe linage.

why am i thinking this sounds like a movie by mel brooks?

it might get even weirder, Dhjengis khan supposedly was red haired and had blue/greenish eyes, so his kids inheriting that trait could give some more surreal effects. the Jewish Red Horde anyone?