What if: William, Count of Poitiers survives

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

William was the first born son of Henry II and Eleanor of Auqitaine, born in 1153, he died as an infant though, meaning his brother Henry the Young King became their father's heir.

Of course, during the course of his brothers lives, they rebelled against their father numerous times, usually at their mother's instigation. If William had survived into adulthood, would this have changed anything?

Avrorrange · Jul 4, 2015

One more kid to add to the troubles.

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

darthfanta said:
One more kid to add to the troubles.

You think he'd not stand by his father?

Avrorrange · Jul 4, 2015

VVD0D95 said:
You think he'd not stand by his father?

Ultimately,who stood for the father?Not even one.Even John, Henry's favorite,deserted him by the end.I agree that John was a complete b@stard in so many ways,but the fact that out of all his kids,so many fought against him indicates that Henry II's a lousy father.

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

darthfanta said:
Ultimately,who stood for the father?Not even one.Even John, Henry's favorite,deserted him by the end.I agree that John was a complete b@stard in so many ways,but the fact that out of all his kids,so many fought against him indicates that Henry II's a lousy father.

Hmm okay, do you not think William might stick by his father simply to gain moer land in such a victory?

Avrorrange · Jul 4, 2015

VVD0D95 said:
Hmm okay, do you not think William might stick by his father simply to gain moer land in such a victory?

Looks at Henry the Young King.

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

darthfanta said:
Looks at Henry the Young King.

Indeed that is true.

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

I do wonder if Henry II might well have paid more attention to his eldest son, considering the connotations of that, if he might well have decided that this son was to be his and his alone

LSCatilina · Jul 4, 2015

Well, what darthfanta said.

Plantagenet's continental domination was made under really distinct titles and lordships, and you basically made the whole management even harder with one more surviving son, critically when William would have monopolized both English crown and the Duchy of Aquitaine, given his title and name : it would have basically mean at least one more John Lackland-equivalent.

At this point, it would have asked for a really finely tuned policy from Henry II to just not see their dominations in Western France going wild, with the active support of Capetians that threw everything they could in there.

I do wonder if Henry II might well have paid more attention to his eldest son, considering the connotations of that, if he might well have decided that this son was to be his and his alone

Giving and the infantile mortality, and the need to get someone ruling these territories, that would be a bad move. A big feudal family may not be an happy family, but it's the only way to have an efficient family.

The problem is that it was accompanied there by a really important structural disunity between the different Plantagenet holdings.

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

LSCatilina said:
Well, what darthfanta said.

Plantagenet's continental domination was made under really distinct titles and lordships, and you basically made the whole management even harder with one more surviving son, critically when William would have monopolized both English crown and the Duchy of Aquitaine, given his title and name : it would have basically mean at least one more John Lackland-equivalent.

At this point, it would have asked for a really finely tuned policy from Henry II to just not see their dominations in Western France going wild, with the active support of Capetians that threw everything they could in there.

Giving and the infantile mortality, and the need to get someone ruling these territories, that would be a bad move. A big feudal family may not be an happy family, but it's the only way to have an efficient family.

The problem is that it was accompanied there by a really important structural disunity between the different Plantagenet holdings.

Hmm interesting, so it does essentially becomes more of a cluster fuck then?

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

Alternatively, if the Young King had not died in 1183, what would the situation be like then?

LSCatilina · Jul 4, 2015

VVD0D95 said:
Hmm interesting, so it does essentially becomes more of a cluster fuck then?

Basically.

VVD0D95 said:
Alternatively, if the Young King had not died in 1183, what would the situation be like then?

A clusterfuck.

At this point the whole "rebellious sons gaining support from their respective lands/titles/claims and from the really helpful Capetian court" process was already well established.
Of course, it was complicated by the fact these sons regularly switched alliances and fought each other (especially Richard).

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

LSCatilina said:
Basically.

A clusterfuck.

At this point the whole "rebellious sons gaining support from their respective lands/titles/claims and from the really helpful Capetian court" process was already well established.
Of course, it was complicated by the fact these sons regularly switched alliances and fought each other (especially Richard).

Okay interesting, so would it be necessary for Henry to either remove his brothers from his path, or win over his mother?

LSCatilina · Jul 4, 2015

VVD0D95 said:
Okay interesting, so would it be necessary for Henry to either remove his brothers from his path

Near impossible : he would have to deal with landed brothers, and trying to get rid of everyone in the same time is certain to backfire.

or win over his mother?

Not going to help much : she was in house arrest equivalent at this point, and would be so for a long time. Not that it much helped John Lackland in his time.

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

LSCatilina said:
Near impossible : he would have to deal with landed brothers, and trying to get rid of everyone in the same time is certain to backfire.

Not going to help much : she was in house arrest equivalent at this point, and would be so for a long time. Not that it much helped John Lackland in his time.

Hmm, so he would essentially need to win his brothers over then. Richard would be a good place to start one assumes

LSCatilina · Jul 4, 2015

VVD0D95 said:
Hmm, so he would essentially need to win his brothers over then. Richard would be a good place to start one assumes

But he did tried that IOTL already, supporting rebel nobles in Aquitaine. Let's say that Richard wasn't extremely pleased and that the latter beneficied from Henry II's support to kick Henry the Young's fundamentals before he died.

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

LSCatilina said:
But he did tried that IOTL already, supporting rebel nobles in Aquitaine. Let's say that Richard wasn't extremely pleased and that the latter beneficied from Henry II's support to kick Henry the Young's fundamentals before he died.

As in he did try to support Richard? If so, then Richard really was ungrateful aha

LSCatilina · Jul 4, 2015

VVD0D95 said:
As in he did try to support Richard? If so, then Richard really was ungrateful aha

Ah, no I meant trying to litteraly win over his brother. That said, the problem was less Richard than Henry being jealous of his brother : Richard was indeed landed in a prestigious duchy, and Henry was displeased (while being elder) to help him get rid of some rebellious nobles when he had nothing.

But really, the difference between ally and foe among Plantagenets sons was a really vague and changing one. Hence why Richard attacked Henry at some point in order to attack his father trough him.

VVD0D95 · Jul 4, 2015

LSCatilina said:
Ah, no I meant trying to litteraly win over his brother. That said, the problem was less Richard than Henry being jealous of his brother : Richard was indeed landed in a prestigious duchy, and Henry was displeased (while being elder) to help him get rid of some rebellious nobles when he had nothing.

But really, the difference between ally and foe among Plantagenets sons was a really vague and changing one. Hence why Richard attacked Henry at some point in order to attack his father trough him.

That family truly was messed up

LSCatilina · Jul 4, 2015

VVD0D95 said:
That family truly was messed up

There was enough backstabbing to suspect they plundered a cuterly shop.
To be fair, it's less about the family but the family AND a particularly complex political puzzle that some still strive to call an "Empire".