What were Alexander I of Russia's plans for Poland?

dreadnought jenkins

What it says on the tin.

What were Alexander's plans for Poland?

I know he wanted more of it. How much did he want? Did he want Posen?

If he had got all of his claims, what would the borders of his Polish kingdom resemble?
 
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Larus Marinus

He probably wanted all of it, but all he demanded was the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw. Posen was willingly conceded to Prussia for their support in the negotiations, so Krakow was the only one of their Polish demands at the Congress that wasn't fulfilled. They might keep Posen under different circumstances, but that's the extent of what they could be reasonably certain of keeping.

If the Russians were in a position to dictate all the terms of the treaty as they saw fit, their Polish kingdom would likely also include Austrian Galicia and Lodomeria.
 

Lalli

Kuld von Reyn said:
He probably wanted all of it, but all he demanded was the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw. Posen was willingly conceded to Prussia for their support in the negotiations, so Krakow was the only one of their Polish demands at the Congress that wasn't fulfilled. They might keep Posen under different circumstances, but that's the extent of what they could be reasonably certain of keeping.

If the Russians were in a position to dictate all the terms of the treaty as they saw fit, their Polish kingdom would likely also include Austrian Galicia and Lodomeria.
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How this affect for Polis uprisings? Hardly they still can win but probably it is even worse.
 

Larus Marinus

Lalli said:
How this affect for Polis uprisings? Hardly they still can win but probably it is even worse.
Click to expand...
In the second scenario in my previous post, where the Russians own the entirety of Poland, they will have to deal with any Polish uprisings entirely on their own. In OTL, the Austrians and Prussians had to deal with their own shares of Poland, and any uprising in Russian Poland threatened their own shares of Poland. In this timeline we might actually see the Prussians and Austrians covertly aid the Polish rebels, as with no Polish territory of their own, an independent Poland at their borders would definitely be preferable to the Russian bear.

If the Russians win, as they probably would, they'd also find it a lot harder to govern Poland after the uprising than they did OTL. An earlier emergence of an independent Polish state is certainly possible.
 
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Matteo

dreadnought jenkins said:
What it says on the tin.

What were Alexander's plans for Poland?

I know he wanted more of it. How much did he want? Did he want Posen?

If he had got all of his claims, what would the borders of his Polish kingdom resemble?
Click to expand...

At the same time not coherent and very clear.

Poland was the milkcow of the russian high aristocracy. Something like half of the fortunes of the high aristocracy had been given to them in and on the former kingdom of Poland.

That's why the mere creation of the duchy of Warsaw was an absolutely casus belli for the russian government.

So what was clear is that Alexander did not want any polish State that would attract the rest of polish lands. That's why he wanted to be made king of Poland.

Which was not coherent because the poles would never want to have for king the emperor of Russia who was quite the same for them ad Kaiser Wilhelm For the french after 1870.

However, Alexander I was able to trace such a goal through military triumph against napoleonic France.
 

Snaut

Matteo said:
At the same time not coherent and very clear.

Poland was the milkcow of the russian high aristocracy. Something like half of the fortunes of the high aristocracy had been given to them in and on the former kingdom of Poland.

That's why the mere creation of the duchy of Warsaw was an absolutely casus belli for the russian government.

So what was clear is that Alexander did not want any polish State that would attract the rest of polish lands. That's why he wanted to be made king of Poland.

Which was not coherent because the poles would never want to have for king the emperor of Russia who was quite the same for them ad Kaiser Wilhelm For the french after 1870.

However, Alexander I was able to trace such a goal through military triumph against napoleonic France.
Click to expand...

IIRC he even considered reuniting the parts of Poland-Lithuania annexed by Russia directly with the Congress Kingdom (under Russian auspices of course, but still) for a time. Anyway, the Poles weren't quite opposed to his rule at first. (Especially in the period when noises were still made about reuniting the eastern territories - which were considered as Polish as the rest, just as southern England would consider northern England and Scotland British if Russia were to annex them tomorrow). It was only later when the Congress Kingdom's liberties began to be systematically truncated that public opinion decisively shifted towards the view that the Romanovs were completely intolerable savages, and the rest is history.
 

Matteo

That's what the courtesans told to Alexander. The poles just wanted the russians out of their country. They wanted to get back the properties the russian had stolen from them.

They wanted to be free. And that's what the best informed advisors of Alexander, such as Prince Czartoryski told Alexander.
 

Snaut

Matteo said:
That's what the courtesans told to Alexander. The poles just wanted the russians out of their country. They wanted to get back the properties the russian had stolen from them.

They wanted to be free. And that's what the best informed advisors of Alexander, such as Prince Czartoryski told Alexander.
Click to expand...

Granted, something like the November Uprising was highly probable, but do you think there would have been no possibility of a grudging acceptance of the status quo even if Russia somehow managed to restrain its barbaric impulses?
 
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