AHC: Celtic Union

Sycamore

Banned
Your challenge is to come up with an AH scenario in which all of the 'Celtic Nations' (Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Man) are united under a single pan-Celtic government by the present day. This Celtic Nation must also exclude England (or the majority thereof); and you get bonus points if you can pull this off with a POD later than 1838, after the first meeting of the Celtic Congress had taken place in Abergavenny. Up for it?
 

Byzantion

Sycamore said:
Your challenge is to come up with an AH scenario in which all of the 'Celtic Nations' (Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Man) are united under a single pan-Celtic government by the present day. This Celtic Nation must also exclude England (or the majority thereof); and you get bonus points if you can pull this off with a POD later than 1838, after the first meeting of the Celtic Congress had taken place in Abergavenny. Up for it?
Click to expand...

Maybe an independent Celtic Church developes in the early medival period and spreads to all Celtic lands. They manage to protect themselves from Catholic surpremacy further more the Celtic peoples maintain their languages and stay in touch with each other. A Pan-Celtic identity developes.
 

jahenders

Banned
The only way I can see this (or most of it) would be for the Celts in the pre-English isles to have a semi-unified outlook and some unifying force (perhaps a centralized Celtic faith).

They, then manage to largely limit the Romans, Saxons, and Normans in their turn to England proper.

Along the way, the Celts may eventually convert to Christianity, but their form is more distinct and they reject central Papal authority. That may actually work fairly well once Henry founds the Church of England.

In general, it would require the Celts having a strong unifying force and developing a stronger mindset of working together instead of fairly common tribal/clan warfare.

Perhaps they even have periods where they do king-making and alliances so you have one king over Wales and Ireland, Ireland and Scotland, etc.

Sycamore said:
Your challenge is to come up with an AH scenario in which all of the 'Celtic Nations' (Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Man) are united under a single pan-Celtic government by the present day. This Celtic Nation must also exclude England (or the majority thereof); and you get bonus points if you can pull this off with a POD later than 1838, after the first meeting of the Celtic Congress had taken place in Abergavenny. Up for it?
Click to expand...
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Sycamore said:
Your challenge is to come up with an AH scenario in which all of the 'Celtic Nations' (Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Man) are united under a single pan-Celtic government by the present day. This Celtic Nation must also exclude England (or the majority thereof); and you get bonus points if you can pull this off with a POD later than 1838, after the first meeting of the Celtic Congress had taken place in Abergavenny. Up for it?
Click to expand...

Can it include England if it was a majority Celtic England?

Hrmm, Rivals of Great Britain (France, Russia, Austria, Whoeveryouwannachoose) support a group of Celtic Supremacists, or manufactuer some. By building a support base of disenfranchised Irish who are angry about British rule, blaming the British for all their issues, ferment rebellion supported by their powerful backers, who just want to see England suffering.

Russia could be a good candidate to support this as a distracting for GB during the Great Game in Afghanistan. But better for my idea could be Austria. A Catholic Celtic nation could be seen as useful to the Austrians.

The Irish movement gains momentum, and starts fostering Celtic Supremacy groups in Wales, Britanny and Scotland. Imagine this as a consistent movement over 50+ years.

Using Russian money, and taking advantage of British free trade laws, they acquire as many arms as they can, waiting for Britain to suffer.

Assuming a butterfly net, they finally launch their rebellion during the First World War once Britain and France are entrenched against Germany. Joining the war on Germany and Austrias side, they cause major issues on the British Isles, and with the British in Europe, they cause Germany and Austria to succeed in the war, who in turn recognise the Celtic states independence as Britanny, Eire, Scotland, Cornwall and Wales, who unite under a Celtic Union, who begin to systematically deport Anglo-Saxons from their territory, and later parts of occupied England (think Wessex/Upto the Severn/Down to the Tyne).

I can't say it is the most thought through, but a Pan-Celtic supremacy movement seems the best bet for a modern-ish PoD.

Otherwise, Stop Julius Caesar invading, have a Celtic warlord unite Britannia and Hibernia and build a strong navy, but ally with Rome in the long term.
 
Uhura's Mazda

Uhura's Mazda

Banned
James VII and II wins the Battle of the Boyne and manages to keep Ireland under Stuart rule. The Stuarts keep an eye out for ways to invade Great Britain and in 1718 or thereabouts they land in Scotland with French help. With secure territory in Ireland, they have fewer limitations on men, materiel, supplies, etc. and Scotland falls to them. No one cared about the Isle of Man IOTL, so a landing could be effected at some point in this period.

With the coming of the Industrial Revolution and the Empire, the Welsh feel hard done to, and instead of Chartism (or in combination with Chartism), Jacobitism fulfills the zeitgeist in around the mid-1800s. Armed rebellion with troops, etc. from Ireland forming the backbone, and Wales, Scotland and Ireland are now united.

In the 1900s, an authoritarian dictator takes over most of Europe; England opposes him, which means that the Celtic Kingdom supports him. When NotHitler conquers France, he gives Brittany to the Celts because his secret police can't patrol everywhere, damn it, and maybe Cornwall changes hands at this point in a similar way to Wales a century before. England sends in the tanks to Scotland, Wales, etc. but the natives manage to effect a guerilla campaign in the Highlands and Snowdonia. When peace comes, Wales and Scotland are restored to the Celts.
 
Byzantine fanatic

Byzantine fanatic

Sycamore said:
Your challenge is to come up with an AH scenario in which all of the 'Celtic Nations' (Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Man) are united under a single pan-Celtic government by the present day. This Celtic Nation must also exclude England (or the majority thereof); and you get bonus points if you can pull this off with a POD later than 1838, after the first meeting of the Celtic Congress had taken place in Abergavenny. Up for it?
Click to expand...

This is simultaneously a brilliant idea for an alternative history scenario, and pretty much impossible to achieve.

It comes down to geography. All the best fertile farming land is on the eastern side of the UK and its southern parts. The Celtic nations are confined to the worst, poorest, most mountainous land with the least potential for wealth and population.

As a result, England makes up 85% of the population of the current UK, and in times past it’s likely the ratio might have been higher still, since south Wales had a massive influx of population in the industrial era. England is always going to dominate its neighbours militarily, due to the massive imbalance in population, territory, manpower and wealth, which arise from the land itself.

Furthermore, in the pre-modern era (say, prior to the invention of the steam engine and the railways in the early 19th century), the logistics of transport using wind powered sailing ships and hand drawn or horse drawn carts meant that communications between the disparate territories of Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Brittany was difficult.

These lands are poor, sparsely populated and technologically backward. There is very little wealth, and in war they are going to be outclassed in every way by the English, who have overwhelming numerical superiority, vastly superior wealth and better weapons and armour.

Unfortunately therefore, although I enjoy the idea and think it’s a great concept, I think the OP scenario requires ASB and magic to be even remotely viable.
 
Corsair_Caruso

Corsair_Caruso

Byzantine fanatic said:
This is simultaneously a brilliant idea for an alternative history scenario, and pretty much impossible to achieve.

It comes down to geography. All the best fertile farming land is on the eastern side of the UK and its southern parts. The Celtic nations are confined to the worst, poorest, most mountainous land with the least potential for wealth and population.

As a result, England makes up 85% of the population of the current UK, and in times past it’s likely the ratio might have been higher still, since south Wales had a massive influx of population in the industrial era. England is always going to dominate its neighbours militarily, due to the massive imbalance in population, territory, manpower and wealth, which arise from the land itself.

Furthermore, in the pre-modern era (say, prior to the invention of the steam engine and the railways in the early 19th century), the logistics of transport using wind powered sailing ships and hand drawn or horse drawn carts meant that communications between the disparate territories of Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Brittany was difficult.

These lands are poor, sparsely populated and technologically backward. There is very little wealth, and in war they are going to be outclassed in every way by the English, who have overwhelming numerical superiority, vastly superior wealth and better weapons and armour.

Unfortunately therefore, although I enjoy the idea and think it’s a great concept, I think the OP scenario requires ASB and magic to be even remotely viable.
Click to expand...

I feel essentially the same way. The areas involved are too distant to one another in earlier periods to come under some kind of common umbrella and also not include England, I just don't think the logistics are there. Also, the kind of military power to defend the various areas from conquest by England and France would end up being enough, in my opinion, to take over England proper and just have a UK that includes Brittany.

I think the two best scenarios are, 1. as also stated above, give England a stronger Celtic identity, maybe fewer Germanic invasions, or perhaps a policy of integration with Celtic cultures rather than supplanting thereof; then we have yet another British nation: Britain, to throw into the group. Now, the British Isles together with Brittany is a nation-state I could see happening; it's more likely, anyway.

The next best option is for significantly higher numbers of self-identifing celts in the areas with a stronger common identity, a successful secession vote by Scotland, a similar one that follows in Wales, Cornwall, etc... but again, the cultural identities of these areas would have to be much stronger. You'd also likely have to disassociate (Little) British nationalism in France with Fascism/Nazism, which I understand it picked up at some point. Then, with enough political will, you might be able to manage another secession vote, but I don't know how the French would handle that.

EDIT: Keeping in mind, however, that if so much of England's territory decided to secede, they might stop offering the opportunity; I know that England has, by far, the highest concentration of population, but there's something to be said about losing... what, 40 percent of your landmass? They've barely gotten over losing the empire; losing most of the island might be too much to ask.
 
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Socrates

Scotland's self-image as a Celtic nation is historically inaccurate. Highlanders were Celtic, lowlanders were Germanic. For most of Scotland's history under that name, it has been controlled by the Germanic lowlanders.
 

Sycamore

Banned
Socrates said:
Scotland's self-image as a Celtic nation is historically inaccurate. Highlanders were Celtic, lowlanders were Germanic. For most of Scotland's history under that name, it has been controlled by the Germanic lowlanders.
Click to expand...

Well, I did put 'Celtic Nations' in inverted commas for a reason.
 
Ditzy Vixen (RossN)

Ditzy Vixen (RossN)

Byzantine fanatic said:
As a result, England makes up 85% of the population of the current UK, and in times past it’s likely the ratio might have been higher still, since south Wales had a massive influx of population in the industrial era. England is always going to dominate its neighbours militarily, due to the massive imbalance in population, territory, manpower and wealth, which arise from the land itself.
Click to expand...

Historically a lower ratio actually. In 1841 the population of England and Wales combined was 15.9 million, Ireland 8.2 million and Scotland 2.6 million. Clearly that still leaves England dominant but not nearly to the scale of 85%.
 
WILDGEESE

WILDGEESE

Sycamore said:
Your challenge is to come up with an AH scenario in which all of the 'Celtic Nations' (Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Man) are united under a single pan-Celtic government by the present day. This Celtic Nation must also exclude England (or the majority thereof); and you get bonus points if you can pull this off with a POD later than 1838, after the first meeting of the Celtic Congress had taken place in Abergavenny. Up for it?
Click to expand...

You can't have a United Celtic Nations without England, as England in itself is from Celtic descent.

This Anglo-Jute-Saxon "bull shine" is from certain people in England who have run the country since the Norman conquest portraying us as from German stock when in fact very little of English DNA is is German.

Most if not 90% of English DNA is from Celtic origin. It's the "toff's" and "chinless wonders" trying to make out that we're different to the rest of the peoples of the British Isles.

Just imagine how the nations of Britain would've got on better without this poppycock.

Regards filer.
 
Byzantine fanatic

Byzantine fanatic

RossN said:
Historically a lower ratio actually. In 1841 the population of England and Wales combined was 15.9 million, Ireland 8.2 million and Scotland 2.6 million. Clearly that still leaves England dominant but not nearly to the scale of 85%.
Click to expand...

I didn't include Ireland in my calculation because it isn't part of the UK :)

Interesting that there were so many people in Ireland at that time, though. I am surprised it was as many as that. Apparently in the 18th century the Irish population doubled from 2 million to 4 million, so it looks like it must have doubled again by 1841. Amazing population expansion. Sadly though Ireland had been brutally ruled by the English oppressor for centuries by this point. The English were abominable in the way they treated the Irish.
 

funnyhat

WILDGEESE99 said:
You can't have a United Celtic Nations without England, as England in itself is from Celtic descent.

This Anglo-Jute-Saxon "bull shine" is from certain people in England who have run the country since the Norman conquest portraying us as from German stock when in fact very little of English DNA is is German.

Most if not 90% of English DNA is from Celtic origin. It's the "toff's" and "chinless wonders" trying to make out that we're different to the rest of the peoples of the British Isles.

Just imagine how the nations of Britain would've got on better without this poppycock.

Regards filer.
Click to expand...

But obviously, this is an issue of language/culture and not genetics. Otherwise many mainland Europeans would be "Celtic" as well.
 

CountPeter

GdwnsnHo said:
Can it include England if it was a majority Celtic England?

Hrmm, Rivals of Great Britain (France, Russia, Austria, Whoeveryouwannachoose) support a group of Celtic Supremacists, or manufactuer some. By building a support base of disenfranchised Irish who are angry about British rule, blaming the British for all their issues, ferment rebellion supported by their powerful backers, who just want to see England suffering.

Russia could be a good candidate to support this as a distracting for GB during the Great Game in Afghanistan. But better for my idea could be Austria. A Catholic Celtic nation could be seen as useful to the Austrians.

The Irish movement gains momentum, and starts fostering Celtic Supremacy groups in Wales, Britanny and Scotland. Imagine this as a consistent movement over 50+ years.

Using Russian money, and taking advantage of British free trade laws, they acquire as many arms as they can, waiting for Britain to suffer.

Assuming a butterfly net, they finally launch their rebellion during the First World War once Britain and France are entrenched against Germany. Joining the war on Germany and Austrias side, they cause major issues on the British Isles, and with the British in Europe, they cause Germany and Austria to succeed in the war, who in turn recognise the Celtic states independence as Britanny, Eire, Scotland, Cornwall and Wales, who unite under a Celtic Union, who begin to systematically deport Anglo-Saxons from their territory, and later parts of occupied England (think Wessex/Upto the Severn/Down to the Tyne).

I can't say it is the most thought through, but a Pan-Celtic supremacy movement seems the best bet for a modern-ish PoD.

Otherwise, Stop Julius Caesar invading, have a Celtic warlord unite Britannia and Hibernia and build a strong navy, but ally with Rome in the long term.
Click to expand...

WILDGEESE99 said:
You can't have a United Celtic Nations without England, as England in itself is from Celtic descent.

This Anglo-Jute-Saxon "bull shine" is from certain people in England who have run the country since the Norman conquest portraying us as from German stock when in fact very little of English DNA is is German.

Most if not 90% of English DNA is from Celtic origin. It's the "toff's" and "chinless wonders" trying to make out that we're different to the rest of the peoples of the British Isles.

Just imagine how the nations of Britain would've got on better without this poppycock.

Regards filer.
Click to expand...

Can you source that? I mean that in itself has all sorts of interesting alt hist potential if true.
 
Emperor RyRy

Emperor RyRy

Banned
Anglo-Saxons stay in Germany, Ireland grows in population after unifying against Picts, turns Celtic Viking, conquers British aisles over the course of *insert number between two and ten* centuries.


Technically doesn't include England because England never existed!
 

Tyr

Emperor RyRy said:
Anglo-Saxons stay in Germany, Ireland grows in population after unifying against Picts, turns Celtic Viking, conquers British aisles over the course of *insert number between two and ten* centuries.


Technically doesn't include England because England never existed!
Click to expand...

They tried. That's why the Anglo-Saxons came over in the first place.
 
MrGreyOwl

MrGreyOwl

Making Postumus' Gallic Empire stabilize and survive in 260 BC. At it height, it included Iberia, so you can include Celts from Galicia as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_Empire

It would be an empire mainly Celtic, with a romanized government/structure (best of both world?). You will have to find a way to repel reconquest attempt by the 'main' Roman Empire, and the various barbarian invasions in the 5th century (with the help of some butterflies, I think) but with the British Isles as a 'rear base' to reconquer potentially lost territories, you may have something that could survive until the modern era.
 
Corsair_Caruso

Corsair_Caruso

MrGreyOwl said:
Making Postumus' Gallic Empire stabilize and survive in 260 BC. At it height, it included Iberia, so you can include Celts from Galicia as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_Empire

It would be an empire mainly Celtic, with a romanized government/structure (best of both world?). You will have to find a way to repel reconquest attempt by the 'main' Roman Empire, and the various barbarian invasions in the 5th century (with the help of some butterflies, I think) but with the British Isles as a 'rear base' to reconquer potentially lost territories, you may have something that could survive until the modern era.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I vote for this one. I could even see a nation like this adopting a semi-romanticized and homogenized Celtic identity throughout the Empire later on: "Empire of all the Celts," or something of that nature.

A united Iberia, Gaul and British Isles would be a powerhouse in later centuries, after the collapse of the rest of the Empire (assuming such still happens).
 
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