US vs Spain- Naval power early 1800s
- Thread starter galanx
- Start date
Define what you mean by early 1800s.The US navy between 1800-1812 consisted less than ten frigates.The Spanish Navy meanwhile(before Trafalgar at least) has a lot of ships of the line.
Grey Wolf
Donor
The US had the capability to increase its navy if it had to - the acts of congress were in place, and the keels I think were in some cases even laid down.
But in a stand-up fight you are putting what is either a coast defence navy, or one designed to power project against weaker opponents, up against an almost-first rank battleline. Ergo, they won't be fighting a stand-up fight, as the US captains are not that stupid.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
But in a stand-up fight you are putting what is either a coast defence navy, or one designed to power project against weaker opponents, up against an almost-first rank battleline. Ergo, they won't be fighting a stand-up fight, as the US captains are not that stupid.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
TFSmith121
Banned
You need a specific time frame
You need a specific time; early 1800s could be 1801-1850, presumably.
Best,
You need a specific time; early 1800s could be 1801-1850, presumably.
Best,
unprincipled peter
Donor
I've never been able to use the search function on this site. I just go to google and include 'alternate history' along with whatever I'm searching for. It brings up the thread titles from this site.
!820s, roughly- it's an ATL but hasn't changed that much from our TL.
Basically thinking of a situation where Spain still has the Louisiana Territory and she and the US go to war over keeping it.
I'm assuming Spain would lose quickly on land but hold her own at sea, though the Americans don't have any particular maritime objectives.
Basically thinking of a situation where Spain still has the Louisiana Territory and she and the US go to war over keeping it.
I'm assuming Spain would lose quickly on land but hold her own at sea, though the Americans don't have any particular maritime objectives.
Yea, there doesn't seem to be a way to get a restrictive 'AND' in there to make sure it's narrowed down to all the desired keywords.
Grey Wolf
Donor
If Spain still holds Louisiana hasn't this got butterflies for whether they still hold Mexico or not?
At the least, it might well mean they tried harder and have more infrastructure in place to support that effort. So, we shouldn't be looking at OTL Louisiana, Florida, Cuba but ones somewhat modernised and enhanced in the effort to hold onto Mexico.
Just a thought
Here's another one - sans differences, is not Spain a member of the Holy Alliance after 1815, and might not then France, Austria and Russia feel obliged to come to her support in a war with the USA?
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Badly for the USA. Till the Mexican revolution the Spanish navy numbered some 145 warships including dozens of ships of the line. Even after Trafalgar I believe Spain still had like 50-70 ships of the line or something like that. The issue for the Spanish fleet was not that it and the French could math the british but they lacked experience, the british used divide and conquer, and the british successfully bottled up the Spanish fleet at Cadiz. Not to mention Britain had better experienced crews. The USA in by 1820 had only ten frigates as stated earlier. Even if they began a mass naval building program, its unlikely that they can beat the Spanish at sea. What you can see is a blockade of New England and the south, though I do believe on land the Americans may win but against sustained American forces from across the new world, unlikely.
Now the one big force in the region that could change the wars outcome is Britain. If Britain sids with the USA then spain will back down and give up Louisiana. But I am not sure whether Britain will be eager to come to American aid after all they did just recently fight a war and if America takes Louisiana it would be that much stronger.
Now the one big force in the region that could change the wars outcome is Britain. If Britain sids with the USA then spain will back down and give up Louisiana. But I am not sure whether Britain will be eager to come to American aid after all they did just recently fight a war and if America takes Louisiana it would be that much stronger.
TFSmith121
Banned
The Spanish Navy was unable to
The Spanish Navy was unable to make any significant impact in the wars of independence of the Spanish Empire in the Americas in this period, much less the actual conflict between Spain and the U.S. over Florida in 1819; seems very unlikely it would have any significant impact in a conflict between Spain and the U.S. over Louisiana in 1820.
A rough count of Spanish ships of the line still in existence in 1820 is six elderly ships built in the 1700s, some as early as the 1760s, and eight built in the 1800s. The latter include a mix of ships built in Spain or captured, few of which lasted past the 1820s and at least one of which mutinied and ended up under the Mexican flag.
Spain's ability to project and sustain power in the Western Hemisphere outside of Cuba and Puerto Rico was very limited in this era, as was proven repeatedly in their attempts to fight the Latin American rebels, including the abortive final invasion of Mexico in 1829 ... where they were defeated by Santa Ana et al.
Spain's last real chance at maintaining a significant presence in the Americas evaporated with the Napoleonic wars, and it takes some huge changes to avoid that reality.
Best,
The Spanish Navy was unable to make any significant impact in the wars of independence of the Spanish Empire in the Americas in this period, much less the actual conflict between Spain and the U.S. over Florida in 1819; seems very unlikely it would have any significant impact in a conflict between Spain and the U.S. over Louisiana in 1820.
A rough count of Spanish ships of the line still in existence in 1820 is six elderly ships built in the 1700s, some as early as the 1760s, and eight built in the 1800s. The latter include a mix of ships built in Spain or captured, few of which lasted past the 1820s and at least one of which mutinied and ended up under the Mexican flag.
Spain's ability to project and sustain power in the Western Hemisphere outside of Cuba and Puerto Rico was very limited in this era, as was proven repeatedly in their attempts to fight the Latin American rebels, including the abortive final invasion of Mexico in 1829 ... where they were defeated by Santa Ana et al.
Spain's last real chance at maintaining a significant presence in the Americas evaporated with the Napoleonic wars, and it takes some huge changes to avoid that reality.
Best,
TFSmith121
Banned
There's that as well
There's that as well...to put it mildly. And interestingly enough, the 1820-23 civil war began among troops in Spain ordered TO the Western Hemisphere...
There's a reason they didn't do much of anything over Florida, for example.
Best,
There's that as well...to put it mildly. And interestingly enough, the 1820-23 civil war began among troops in Spain ordered TO the Western Hemisphere...
There's a reason they didn't do much of anything over Florida, for example.
Best,
compare that with the US fleet by wars end aside from Constitution and maybe two frigates the rest of its navy had been destroyed by the British. merchant marine was large true but against ships of the line the US has nothing. Not to mention it is already exhausted after fighting the British. Now in 1820 I agree the Spanish navy was in disrepair but between 1815-1820 the US would not have been able to take Louisiana from Spain. Besides USA bought Louisiana form France in 1807. That means that you need a war between America and Spain before 1800 because Louisiana belonged to the French. I doubt the US had any interest in Spanish territory in otl Texas area since they were busy settling the Northwest and Lousiana was big enough as is.
Regardless Spanish naval power even In 1820 was stronger than the United states. However I agree that once Latin America rise sup in rebellion, Spanish naval projection capabilities go down the drain. In otl the need for a large Spanish navy was to oversee its colonies sand once Spain lost he colonies it could no longer afford to build and maintain large fleets like it used to.
Because during the Napoleonic wars Spain was in upheaveal and the colonies were left to themselves and so of course their would be panicked. But it doesn't change the facts on the ground that in the early 1800s the US had other worries than Louisiana. The natives under Tecumseh were organizing in the Northwest. The British and Americans were being drawn closer into conflict. The only reason France sold Louisiana was because it failed to put down the Haitian rebellion and lacked no foreword base from which to go into America. Spain on the other hand faced no such rebellions till 1820s when you had the restored Emperor revoking the privileges of the juntas leading to the rising in revolt.
It was the juntas not Hidalgo who won the war for independence in the colonies against Spain.
But that's beside thw point. This thread is about Spanish vs American naval power and in 1815 all the figures point to Spain having the stronger navy.
Merchant marines are no match even in numbers against ships of the lines. The US had 10 frigates during the war against Britain I think or was it ten. It lost most of them. So I guess in terms of naval power till the loss of its colonies Spain had the greater naval power than the USA but once its colonies broke free Spain lost its naval superiority over the USA.
TFSmith121
Banned
Yeah, not quite
[QUOTE[/I][/I]=Fredrick II Barbarossa;10665140]compare that with the US fleet by wars end aside from Constitution and maybe two frigates the rest of its navy had been destroyed by the British. merchant marine was large true but against ships of the line the US has nothing. Not to mention it is already exhausted after fighting the British. Now in 1820 I agree the Spanish navy was in disrepair but between 1815-1820 the US would not have been able to take Louisiana from Spain. Besides USA bought Louisiana form France in 1807. That means that you need a war between America and Spain before 1800 because Louisiana belonged to the French. I doubt the US had any interest in Spanish territory in otl Texas area since they were busy settling the Northwest and Lousiana was big enough as is.
Regardless Spanish naval power even In 1820 was stronger than the United states. However I agree that once Latin America rise sup in rebellion, Spanish naval projection capabilities go down the drain. In otl the need for a large Spanish navy was to oversee its colonies sand once Spain lost he colonies it could no longer afford to build and maintain large fleets like it used to.[/QUOTE]
independence, Columbus,Franklin, and Washington were all in commission by 1820 (which was the OP's selected date) and Pennsylvania and seven Delawares has all been laid down; the frigate force was being replenished as well. Again, in 1820 - which was the OP's date - the Spanish are not in a position to fight a naval war in the Western Hemisphere, as was demonstrated repeatedly in their attempts to deal with the Latin American republics in the 1820s.
The U.S. Purchased Louisiana from France in 1803, and occupied Florida against minimal Spanish resistance in 1819.
Roll the point of departure back to before 1803 and you have to deal with the realities of the Napoleonoc wars.
Best,
[QUOTE[/I][/I]=Fredrick II Barbarossa;10665140]compare that with the US fleet by wars end aside from Constitution and maybe two frigates the rest of its navy had been destroyed by the British. merchant marine was large true but against ships of the line the US has nothing. Not to mention it is already exhausted after fighting the British. Now in 1820 I agree the Spanish navy was in disrepair but between 1815-1820 the US would not have been able to take Louisiana from Spain. Besides USA bought Louisiana form France in 1807. That means that you need a war between America and Spain before 1800 because Louisiana belonged to the French. I doubt the US had any interest in Spanish territory in otl Texas area since they were busy settling the Northwest and Lousiana was big enough as is.
Regardless Spanish naval power even In 1820 was stronger than the United states. However I agree that once Latin America rise sup in rebellion, Spanish naval projection capabilities go down the drain. In otl the need for a large Spanish navy was to oversee its colonies sand once Spain lost he colonies it could no longer afford to build and maintain large fleets like it used to.[/QUOTE]
independence, Columbus,Franklin, and Washington were all in commission by 1820 (which was the OP's selected date) and Pennsylvania and seven Delawares has all been laid down; the frigate force was being replenished as well. Again, in 1820 - which was the OP's date - the Spanish are not in a position to fight a naval war in the Western Hemisphere, as was demonstrated repeatedly in their attempts to deal with the Latin American republics in the 1820s.
The U.S. Purchased Louisiana from France in 1803, and occupied Florida against minimal Spanish resistance in 1819.
Roll the point of departure back to before 1803 and you have to deal with the realities of the Napoleonoc wars.
Best,
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US Navy strength 1820
Independence (90), Franklin (64), Washington (74), Columbus (92), Delaware (64), Ohio (64), North Carolina (74)
plus 2 more laid down (but never completed)
12 5th rate frigates (38-44 guns)
around the same number of corvettes, sloops and brigs (varied from year to year)
during the War of 1812 the Americans sent dozens of privateers to sea (to very good effect)
The US Navy doctrine was to use the heavy ships to break through a blockade and for the frigates and smaller ships to wreck enemy commerce. It was designed and trained to fight the War of 1812 all over again.
The Spanish had serious training issues during the entire Napoleonic era, and it would be a significant change for them to fix that as it was endemic. The US Navy has just finished a very good fight against the RN, and then proceeded to end the Barbary Pirate problem that came up after that war and in 1820 proceeded to clean out the Caribbean of pirate activity.
The Spanish are going to have serious problems..
one other thing, the US Navy was known for having particularly well built and tough ships, and its gunnery was highly rated by the Royal Navy.
Independence (90), Franklin (64), Washington (74), Columbus (92), Delaware (64), Ohio (64), North Carolina (74)
plus 2 more laid down (but never completed)
12 5th rate frigates (38-44 guns)
around the same number of corvettes, sloops and brigs (varied from year to year)
during the War of 1812 the Americans sent dozens of privateers to sea (to very good effect)
The US Navy doctrine was to use the heavy ships to break through a blockade and for the frigates and smaller ships to wreck enemy commerce. It was designed and trained to fight the War of 1812 all over again.
The Spanish had serious training issues during the entire Napoleonic era, and it would be a significant change for them to fix that as it was endemic. The US Navy has just finished a very good fight against the RN, and then proceeded to end the Barbary Pirate problem that came up after that war and in 1820 proceeded to clean out the Caribbean of pirate activity.
The Spanish are going to have serious problems..
one other thing, the US Navy was known for having particularly well built and tough ships, and its gunnery was highly rated by the Royal Navy.
independence, Columbus,Franklin, and Washington were all in commission by 1820 (which was the OP's selected date) and Pennsylvania and seven Delawares has all been laid down; the frigate force was being replenished as well. Again, in 1820 - which was the OP's date - the Spanish are not in a position to fight a naval war in the Western Hemisphere, as was demonstrated repeatedly in their attempts to deal with the Latin American republics in the 1820s.
The U.S. Purchased Louisiana from France in 1803, and occupied Florida against minimal Spanish resistance in 1819.
Roll the point of departure back to before 1803 and you have to deal with the realities of the Napoleonoc wars.
Best,[/QUOTE]
He who controls New Orleans controls Louisiana regardles of how big the territory is.
Also spain had 45 ships of the line according to wiki I can get better sources if need be following trafalgar. Sow hat if the US has 5 ships of the line what can five ships of the line do against 40? xperience goes only so far.
Spaindid not lose the Independence wars due to lacking in troops. It lost because of the colonial elites revolting against Spanish rule. Hell the British with their massive navy had trouble transporting troops to America during the revolution against a much smaller nation. How the hell do you expect Spain to be everywhere n latin America at once. Its impossible even with 145 warships. 50 of which were ships of line so maybe anothr 30-40 or something were transports but they can only take so much troops to the new world. Logistics+loss fo support from the colonial elites of th Spanish empire is what screwed Spain.
Naval power wise though SPain was stronger in 1820. Now woul dthe two states fight I doubt it. Aside form Florida no other point of contention. Maybe cuba but once again logistics makes that tough. But the OP specified naval power not land battles and seapower wise in 1820 Spain was stronger even when tis colonies were in revolt. Land army wise probably not, but sea wise yes.
TFSmith121
Banned
The bottom line is that for most of the
The bottom line is Spain was unable to decisively intervene in the Western Hemisphere from 1800 onwards, historically which encompasses the period in question, and to change that requires a vastly different course for European power politics in the same period.
The OP suggested the early Nineteenth Century, and then narrowed it down to 1820; if the point of departure comes after Napoleon and everything Spain suffered during the Napoleonic era, hard to see the reality being any different.
If you want to go back to the 1700s, almost anything is possible, of course.
Best,
The bottom line is Spain was unable to decisively intervene in the Western Hemisphere from 1800 onwards, historically which encompasses the period in question, and to change that requires a vastly different course for European power politics in the same period.
The OP suggested the early Nineteenth Century, and then narrowed it down to 1820; if the point of departure comes after Napoleon and everything Spain suffered during the Napoleonic era, hard to see the reality being any different.
If you want to go back to the 1700s, almost anything is possible, of course.
Best,
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