End of gladiatorial games without Christianity

Fenestella

Banned
Were Christian bans the cure for the inveteracy of the gladiatorial institutions?

Without them, how much later would the Roman mores be averse to the bloodletting enough for the practice to die out?
 
Sadly the costs of the games in a declining empire would be more important than the moral factor.
 
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Gladiatorial games were so importants for Romans that these might survive much longer. If someone enlightened person not be able to confirm Romans how terrible idea is enforce two persons fighting against each others, games might survive until nowadays.
 
Gladiatorial games were so importants for Romans that these might survive much longer. If someone enlightened person not be able to confirm Romans how terrible idea is enforce two persons fighting against each others, games might survive until nowadays.

In a less-lethal sense, boxing and MMA are spiritual successors: two men beating each other into unconsciousness for public entertainment. All that has to happen for true gladiatorial sport to continue indefinitely is to slowly transition into a (mostly) non-lethal sport.

Well, and for some kind of central government to continue, but a less-extravagant gladiator contest doesn't require as large a polity to fund it. City-states could handle smaller contests.
 
Christianity did not end the gladiatorial games. Bullfights are the modern remnant of those games, with toreros the modern-day bestiarii.
 
In a less-lethal sense, boxing and MMA are spiritual successors: two men beating each other into unconsciousness for public entertainment. All that has to happen for true gladiatorial sport to continue indefinitely is to slowly transition into a (mostly) non-lethal sport.

Well, and for some kind of central government to continue, but a less-extravagant gladiator contest doesn't require as large a polity to fund it. City-states could handle smaller contests.

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part. Boxing existed as a sport since Greek times. Gladiatorial contests mimicked warfare - armor, military style weaponry, sometimes staged "battles". They were also as much theatre as actual combat, and fights to the death were actually the exception rather than the norm. Well-trained gladiators were very expensive property. If one is looking for a "survival" of gladiatorial contests in the post-Roman west, I would offer knightly jousts and tournaments as such a survival. And as Salamander observes, many Roman "games" featured combat with (or death by) animals, and this survives in bullfighting and other contests featuring men vs animals like Rodeo, and even some circus acts.
 
Were Christian bans the cure for the inveteracy of the gladiatorial institutions?

Without them, how much later would the Roman mores be averse to the bloodletting enough for the practice to die out?

What was the stance of Neo-Platonic school concerning the games ?
 
In a less-lethal sense, boxing and MMA are spiritual successors: two men beating each other into unconsciousness for public entertainment. All that has to happen for true gladiatorial sport to continue indefinitely is to slowly transition into a (mostly) non-lethal sport.

Well, and for some kind of central government to continue, but a less-extravagant gladiator contest doesn't require as large a polity to fund it. City-states could handle smaller contests.

Gladiator fights were mostly non-lethal though. Gladiators were expensive to maintain and train, their owners did not want a high turnover rate. Hence most gladiator fights ended without death.
 

Zelda

Banned
Didn't Christians just start throwing pagans in there after Constantine converted the empire to Christianity?
 
What was the stance of Neo-Platonic school concerning the games ?

Basically "boo, not coolo". But that needn't mean very much, Neoplatonics disapproved of pretty much anytzhing that was physically enjoyable, and munera were bound up with all kinds of visceral fun. Most people didn't take them too seriously in practical considerations.

In a way, aren't jousts descended from gladiatorial combat?

No, not really. THey don't have shared roots or similar structures. Jousting is a development of tourneys, which are basically war games for young aristocrats to refine their fighting skills in. Though they increasingly became a spectacle rather than a genuine preparation for war, they always remained a participant sport. THe people who really mattered were the peoplke on the horses. THe event was laid on for their sake.

Gladiatorial combat was never about the gladiators. They didn't get to choose whether to do it and weren't supposed to be having fun. THey existed for the sake of others - initially the Gods of the Underworld, later the spectators.

Didn't Christians just start throwing pagans in there after Constantine converted the empire to Christianity?

No, but execution by gladiatorial combat was an unusual fate anyway. Mainly, if you were going to kill someone, it would be ad bestias. Or in some inventive fashion. They did that a lot, before and after Constantine, but not usually for paganism.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
Didn't Christians just start throwing pagans in there after Constantine converted the empire to Christianity?

No. The games still existed, and were still in vogue until the time of Honorius, when Christian disgust at the games grew palpable enough to affect change. It was quite a conflict for a while inside the growing Christian Roman Aristocracy, as it represented another area where Roman traditions and Christianity had some disconnect that needed to be reconciled. Once people were forced to choose between God and the games, the choice was made for them.

Roman executions were rarely by gladiatorial combat, either. That was a relatively rare punishment, and not something for religious offenses.
 
I think the games are on the way out regardless of Constantine's conversion. They are an incredible display of conspicuous consumption that a contracting Empire can ill afford. Horse-racing is much, much cheaper. The horse is local. You don't have to send somebody across the Mediterranean, find a lion, take it a alive, and then haul a very alive, very angry lion across the Mediterranean in a wooden ship. And then do it forty more times because this is a big festival! Much easier to have a nice horse race.

Especially when you consider how crazy they were for elephant fights. Do you know how much an elephant poops? And eats? The sheer cost of getting the animals for a big old beast show was staggering. Hard to justify with the Huns at the door.

Similarly, having several hundred fighting men whose entire job is entertainment is a losing proposition when there's a horde of righteous Beduoin banging the doors down to introduce you to the hot new monotheistic religion of the day.
 
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