Will Kürlich Kerl
Banned
What happens if Ernst Röhm and the SA attempted to launch a coup against Hitler and his government in June of 1934?
WI: Röhm and SA launched a putsch against Hitler
- Thread starter Will Kürlich Kerl
- Start date
If the entirety of the SA is behind them I imagine it would be a zerg rush of some sort that Hitler couldn't survive, providing it is before the 30th.
prior the "Night of the long Knife" were SS crush the SA and execute Röhm and Others,
was a Power struggle in NSDAP between the "Communist" and "Aryan" fraction
Gregor Strasser and Ernst Rhöm were for more Communist Approach in Economy and Military
by nationalization of German Industry and capital, while the Reichs Wehr replace by a People Army of SA.
and strong alliance with USSR under Stalin.
Hitler was not interest in those "Jewish" ideas and he needed the German Capitalist and Reich wehr for his conquest plans.
next to that Himmler SS wanted become the Power fraction inside the NSDAP and "Communist" SA were in there way.
so SS staged the so called "Röhm Putsch" and Hitler use this to eliminate the opposition inside the NSDAP in June 1934.
I could imagine that Röhm would act, if he was informed of SS plot and during the countermeasure Hitler get killed by SA mob
Here Himmler would executed because of "His Putsch attempt against the Führer" the SS because high treason get terminated.
likely that Herman Göring is also under victims as collateral damage during the purge.
i think under this circumstance Gregor Strasser will emerge as new leader of NSDAP and become next Führer of Germany
either his brother or his sectary could become reich chancellor: Joseph Gobbles !
with Ernst Rhöm as commander of German people army
after the Intellectuals has flees Germany, it now turn for the Rich and industrials like Krupp, Bosch, Opel, Siemens, Thyssen to run.
was a Power struggle in NSDAP between the "Communist" and "Aryan" fraction
Gregor Strasser and Ernst Rhöm were for more Communist Approach in Economy and Military
by nationalization of German Industry and capital, while the Reichs Wehr replace by a People Army of SA.
and strong alliance with USSR under Stalin.
Hitler was not interest in those "Jewish" ideas and he needed the German Capitalist and Reich wehr for his conquest plans.
next to that Himmler SS wanted become the Power fraction inside the NSDAP and "Communist" SA were in there way.
so SS staged the so called "Röhm Putsch" and Hitler use this to eliminate the opposition inside the NSDAP in June 1934.
I could imagine that Röhm would act, if he was informed of SS plot and during the countermeasure Hitler get killed by SA mob
Here Himmler would executed because of "His Putsch attempt against the Führer" the SS because high treason get terminated.
likely that Herman Göring is also under victims as collateral damage during the purge.
i think under this circumstance Gregor Strasser will emerge as new leader of NSDAP and become next Führer of Germany
either his brother or his sectary could become reich chancellor: Joseph Gobbles !
with Ernst Rhöm as commander of German people army
after the Intellectuals has flees Germany, it now turn for the Rich and industrials like Krupp, Bosch, Opel, Siemens, Thyssen to run.
And then the army launches a coup of their own?From what I can tell,the army was not fond of the SS,the SA more so,given they want to replace them completely.
Yes the army absolutely despised the SA but there were only 100,000 men in the army in 1934, plus 50,000 members of the SS and 500,000 members of the Stahlhelm as opposed to 4,500,000 members of the SA. If the SA were'nt caught off guard like they were in OTL they would have far more than a fighting chance.
RodentRevolution
Banned
The problem with the raw numbers is that the SA had only arms for a few tens of thousands at most, at least two million of its recruits had only signed up to show affiliation with the Nazis once they came to power and even then of the 2.5 million that are left , there is poor co-ordination of the kind that is needed for a military style operation and worse most likely extremely divided loyalties.
Röhm would need to aim for a palace coup and secure Hitler early on as if it became known he had lost Hitler's endorsement then his days would be numbered.
Not to mention,due to the limit on the size of the army,only the best troops remained in the army.
Also a large number of SA were formerly in Stahlhelm and other right-nationalist militias and might side with the army
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
The SA doesn't need to achieve a victory against the Reichswehr - they just have to arrest the commanders of Reichswehr and SS, just like the SS did it with the SA.
In 34 Stalhelm were part of the SA, and need to throw in Police who were armed I believe and the numbers for the SS seem very high this early. They are also not distinct from the SA so much until the Night of the Long Knives so a successful SA coup the survivors are probably on the side of the SA.
I don’t know of any decent T/L on this as Michel says the SA faction has a very different agenda to the Hitlerites.
But
The Troops do not have weapons. They have armouries from which they can issue weapons. Picky but an important distinction, if the SA take control of the Armouries they have the weapons.
If the SA is launching a coup then the first targets will be the leadership.
That’s three elements the German Government, the Party and the Army. Take those out and there is no one to give orders for a countercoup. That probably comes down to 20-30 people. Goring probably being the most critical, possibly more than Hitler for the first few hours. He controls the Prussian Police ( Berlin) and up to April 34 is head of the Gestapo.
If successful what would probably happen is the death of senior party leaders outside the Coup group and of a significant chunk of the High command, seizure of the propaganda apparatus. Prussian ministries and possibly some significant others followed by orders from a ‘legitimate’ source too arm the SA with Heer weapons. The best excuse I can think of would be the assassination of Hitler in an Army led Coup leading to a purge of the officer corps.
I don’t know of any decent T/L on this as Michel says the SA faction has a very different agenda to the Hitlerites.
But
The Troops do not have weapons. They have armouries from which they can issue weapons. Picky but an important distinction, if the SA take control of the Armouries they have the weapons.
If the SA is launching a coup then the first targets will be the leadership.
That’s three elements the German Government, the Party and the Army. Take those out and there is no one to give orders for a countercoup. That probably comes down to 20-30 people. Goring probably being the most critical, possibly more than Hitler for the first few hours. He controls the Prussian Police ( Berlin) and up to April 34 is head of the Gestapo.
If successful what would probably happen is the death of senior party leaders outside the Coup group and of a significant chunk of the High command, seizure of the propaganda apparatus. Prussian ministries and possibly some significant others followed by orders from a ‘legitimate’ source too arm the SA with Heer weapons. The best excuse I can think of would be the assassination of Hitler in an Army led Coup leading to a purge of the officer corps.
So a coup appears possible, if Röhm gets wind that his demise is being planned. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the coup is successful. What happens then? I have doubts that it could remain stable, especially any too "communist" policies will encounter great opposition from the Prussian establishment, wouldn't they?
RodentRevolution
Banned
You would see a purge of the establishment. Any opponents would simply be labelled as sympathisers to the "Army Conspiracy". I don't think the SA could have successfully mounted a coup but had they done so and secrued Hitler's silence as to his true feelings about them (by holding him captive or planting him in the ground) then they would at least for a while have the whip hand.
I doubt that Röhm and co could run Germany even as well as the first efforts of the Bolsehviks to run Russia but there may not be even a civil war if they were decisive enough in the early stages (not remotely a given). The most likely result is an unholy mess...on the other hand World War II would likely be cancelled or the Germany War of 194? would be fairly short.
If this is only confined to a coup then the number dont mean anything. If the coup fails & this degenerates into a civil war then the number on men are part of the calculation.
The Stalhelm & a few other small organizations had been incorporated into the SA. Those had been fairly conservative organizations and their members not in sympathy with Roehms doctrines. The SA also included a fair number of former Socialists and Communists who had joined to avoid harrasment by the nazi government. their reliability was suspect as well. Bottom line is a very large portion of the SA may be 'unreliable' or desert completely.
The leadership of the SA were not choosen for their ability to organize large scale urban combat. They knew how to organize mobs to intimidate & impress, and gangs to push Jews off the sidewalk or beat political opponents. Many were combat veterans, but they still lacked the large operation experience.
The Reichswehr was well trained for dealing with civil insurrection. The Sparticist revolt in Berlin had scared the upper & middle classes, as had the election of Communists in Bavaria. The Army and Police planned and trained together for suppressing revolts. While some police were in the SA or in sympathy with Rohms ideas the leadership were largely conservative & committed to the government. One of the first acts of Hitlers new government in 1933 was to appoint reliable nazis to the senior positions in the Berlin police. Its likely the SA would have far more opposition than assistance from the police.
The 100,000 man Reichwehr existed on paper & did not reflect reality. Kliene-Albrandht interviewed former Reichwehr leaders & received a description of false musters, and how the shadow reserve worked. For a national emergency Kliene-Albrandht estimated the Reichwehr was capable of fielding over 500,000 trained men with small arms including MG, including the 100,000 fully armed as a division size formations.
All that was the pre nazi era Reichwehr. By July 1934 the expansion of the Reichwehr into a much larger army was underway. The shadow reserves were being reworked into a open organization the active service rolls had increased far beyond the paper strength of 100,000 men. Re enrollment of former Reichwehr members meant the new men were not all raw recruits but balanced with a trained cadre.
If this comes to a fight the SA will be deploying ill armed street gangs vs a trained and far better led police/army force, with a elite core of active service army capable of rapid and well organized action.
The key issue of course is 'if it comes to a fight'.
The chances of the SA managing a successful coup are small but not insignificant.
The actual sizes of the forces involved and deaths would be small. OTL the Night of the long Knives was 80- 1000 dead including the aftermath and score settling. An SA coup would be about the same I think and until the generals and colonels get to an HQ and deploy armed and loyal troops they are middle aged family men the SA are quite capable of kicking to death in their living rooms.
As with all these things the key is to take control of critical parts of the state apparatus and comms system to prevent organised resistance in the first place.
Armies tend to be disciplined and follow orders from legitimate authority. If the coup plotters remove the senior commanders and the only orders received are to obey the new Ministers there is either paralysis or a comparatively junior officer has to give orders to overthrow the government - not something the German army is naturally inclined to do.
The chances of the SA managing a successful coup are small but not insignificant.
The actual sizes of the forces involved and deaths would be small. OTL the Night of the long Knives was 80- 1000 dead including the aftermath and score settling. An SA coup would be about the same I think and until the generals and colonels get to an HQ and deploy armed and loyal troops they are middle aged family men the SA are quite capable of kicking to death in their living rooms.
As with all these things the key is to take control of critical parts of the state apparatus and comms system to prevent organised resistance in the first place.
Armies tend to be disciplined and follow orders from legitimate authority. If the coup plotters remove the senior commanders and the only orders received are to obey the new Ministers there is either paralysis or a comparatively junior officer has to give orders to overthrow the government - not something the German army is naturally inclined to do.
thaddeus
Donor
wouldn't the only chance of SA being involved in successful coup be while Von Schleicher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Schleicher was still chancellor?
have a triumvirate of Strasser, Von Schleicher, and Rohm, they were all on the same page ideologically.
have a triumvirate of Strasser, Von Schleicher, and Rohm, they were all on the same page ideologically.
If there was one army that could take initiative in this from random officers on hand it would have been the German army. But, we really need details on the public order plans the Reichwehr had developed. A clear contingency plan for suppresing a revolt makes it more likely the Army & Police retain some organization and react appropriately.
The trouble is the German army shows only tactical initiative.
If there is some sort of responsible body giving orders then yes it would react but if the responsible authorities are giving positive orders to stay put then the inititiative being shown is to start a revolution.
That's outside the normal parameters of a German officers role.
If there is some sort of responsible body giving orders then yes it would react but if the responsible authorities are giving positive orders to stay put then the inititiative being shown is to start a revolution.
That's outside the normal parameters of a German officers role.
True, and in the opening hours/days of a half failed coup it is tactical initiative that counts when the communications are disrupted and commanders down. A Lt who acts and secures the radio station, or sucessfuly places guards on the government offcials has a strong ripple effect on strategy. The Lts decision is a lot easier if there was a clear contingency plan on the shelf. He simply needs to execute what was rehearsed back in April or January. If we had information on how throughly the Reichwehr had prepared we'd undersand the possible outcomes a lot better. Unfortunately I cant recall Kline-Albrandht mentioning this, or any other historian.
On an interesting side note, even if the SA fail they can still take the Rhineland where they have a safe area where the German army cannot touch them due to the DMZ, I was reading Konrad Heiden's The Fuhrer where some coup being plotted against the Prussian establishment would base themselves in the Rhineland.
Also, if Rohm made a move and the communists supported him as the fighting degenerated into a civil war not unlike Spain, the Soviets may be prone to supply the putschists.