Could Germany have been broken up into many different countries (like in the Holy Roman Empire) after either of the world wars? Could those tiny countries ever be viable or would they be a bunch of failed states? (can't see the French or Soviets too upset about that though)
Could Germany have been broken up after WWI/WWII?
- Thread starter ComradeWukong
- Start date
Deleted member 1487
Theoretically yes, but no one wanted to deal with the necessary occupation and economic consequences to make that a reality.
It was possible with WWII.
If the war plays out similarly to Hitler's Mediterranean Strategy, then you could see something like Germany being partitioned into Bavaria, Rhineland, and/or Saxony. However, this would require a much more stalemated war, on both fronts and not the utter curbstomp the Soviets gave the Wehrmacht, or the slow sweep through France in the aftermath of D-Day.
If the war plays out similarly to Hitler's Mediterranean Strategy, then you could see something like Germany being partitioned into Bavaria, Rhineland, and/or Saxony. However, this would require a much more stalemated war, on both fronts and not the utter curbstomp the Soviets gave the Wehrmacht, or the slow sweep through France in the aftermath of D-Day.
Napoleonrules
Banned
Germany came close to imploding during the interwar years. Bavaria was de facto (but not de jure) independent Bavarian Socialist Republic. If we make a POD that makes them successful then you could see Baden and Wurtemberg join; Saxony become independent; the old kings of Hannover finally come home, Prussia might continue to hold onto Brandenburg, Pomerania, Silesia, and the Rhineland through force.
But if there's an imploding Germany into independent states you almost certainly see France taking a stance of full permanent annexation of Saar, and maybe even the same for the Ruhr Valley; if no one attempts to stop the French they could even go for a Rhine border.
Instead of a Polish-Soviet War from 1919-1921 you could see Poland instead go against whatever Prussia is left with and occupy Silesia and Pomerania. You could see an earlier Oder-Niesse border.
But if there's an imploding Germany into independent states you almost certainly see France taking a stance of full permanent annexation of Saar, and maybe even the same for the Ruhr Valley; if no one attempts to stop the French they could even go for a Rhine border.
Instead of a Polish-Soviet War from 1919-1921 you could see Poland instead go against whatever Prussia is left with and occupy Silesia and Pomerania. You could see an earlier Oder-Niesse border.
Could have after WWII. Leaving aside, of course, that it *was* split into East and West Germany, plus Austria.
Cold War politics though had a lot to do with reviving the aspiration to unity. The Western Allies wanted a stronger Germany that was capable of resisting the Soviets. If, say, the USSR collapsed during Barbarossa, and a non-Communist Russian military regime took control (not sure how plausible that would be), then there may be less of an imperative to keep the country together.
Cold War politics though had a lot to do with reviving the aspiration to unity. The Western Allies wanted a stronger Germany that was capable of resisting the Soviets. If, say, the USSR collapsed during Barbarossa, and a non-Communist Russian military regime took control (not sure how plausible that would be), then there may be less of an imperative to keep the country together.
Napoleonrules
Banned
No, but Brandenburg is, and while Prussia gets the attention it is really Brandenburg that was the core and power of Prussia. Prussia became the name of the nation that rose to prominence because while Brandenburg was a part of the Holy Roman Empire, Prussia was not in the HRE and therefore the Prince-Elector of Brandenburg was able to take the title of King in Prussia, the title of King being denied to him in the HRE, though being a Prince-Elector in the HRE was pretty good and actually a more important title IMO than being king of a backwater like Prussia. Prussia took over as the national name only because of that reason.
Napoleonrules
Banned
Prussia is split between Russia and Poland. While people think of it as "East Prussia" that really is PRUSSIA, the rest of what people think of as "Prussia" that remains in Germany is actually Western Pomerania, Brandenburg, and other territories that were only incorporated into Prussia because of Brandenburg's expansion.
Germany barely existed as a unified country for 100 years before Hitler lost it all.
Modern Germans still describe themselves as Bavarian/Friesian first and German second.
Returning to 1840-vintage borders would be a minor shift as long as the (tax union) zolleverine remained.
Just blame both world wars on Brandenburg-Prussia and all the other German-speaking principalities will back-pedal so fast ... to dissociate themselves from those evil, war-mongering Junkers.
Denmark could retake Schleswig-Holstein.
The Netherlands retake r.
Belgium retakes the Ruhr.
uxembourg retakes (?) the Rhineland-Pfalz.
France retakes Alsace-Lorriane and the Rhine Valley all the way to the western slopes of the Black Forest.
Bavaria wanders off on its merry own.
Poland retakes East Prussia.
Hungary retakes ????
Czechs retake the Sudenteland ....
etc.
Brandenburg=Prussia is left as a smoldering crater.
Modern Germans still describe themselves as Bavarian/Friesian first and German second.
Returning to 1840-vintage borders would be a minor shift as long as the (tax union) zolleverine remained.
Just blame both world wars on Brandenburg-Prussia and all the other German-speaking principalities will back-pedal so fast ... to dissociate themselves from those evil, war-mongering Junkers.
Denmark could retake Schleswig-Holstein.
The Netherlands retake r.
Belgium retakes the Ruhr.
uxembourg retakes (?) the Rhineland-Pfalz.
France retakes Alsace-Lorriane and the Rhine Valley all the way to the western slopes of the Black Forest.
Bavaria wanders off on its merry own.
Poland retakes East Prussia.
Hungary retakes ????
Czechs retake the Sudenteland ....
etc.
Brandenburg=Prussia is left as a smoldering crater.
I wasn't really asking for how Germany could be annexed by all its neighbours but how it could become a bunch of small independent countries. Having everybody annex the border regions more hinders that then helps it.
In the TL "How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms" by Geon.
Use The Third Reich nerve gas against Allies and after occupation start guerrilla war against Allies.
The Third Reich is cut up in 8 Smaller states in order to deal easier with Werwolf groups
what look like this on Map
Note Belgium and Luxemburg not longer existing do chaos of SS nerve gas attacks and are now part of France and Netherlands
Use The Third Reich nerve gas against Allies and after occupation start guerrilla war against Allies.
The Third Reich is cut up in 8 Smaller states in order to deal easier with Werwolf groups
what look like this on Map
Note Belgium and Luxemburg not longer existing do chaos of SS nerve gas attacks and are now part of France and Netherlands
Poland was not interested in annexing anything beyond what was claimed at Versailles. However, there was some interest in separating East Prussia by making it a separate little republic and compensating Germany with Austria.
See http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/msg/941c779c28ae6e3e where I give the transcript of the discussions between FDR, Churchill, and Stalin at Teheran on the partition of Germany. Of all the proposals, Churchill's had the least chance of being adopted; Stalin did not like the idea of a Danubian Federation (which was to include Hungary as well as Austria and Bavaria) at all. (He also did not accept the idea that there was any real difference between Prussians and other Germans.) He seemed to have an open mind toward FDR's idea of dividing Germany into several states.
However, the basic problem with all such proposals was recognized:
Churchill: I should not like to be understood as not favouring the partition of Germany. But I wanted to say that if Germany is broken up into several parts without these parts being combined then, as Marshal Stalin said, the time will come when the Germans will unite.
Stalin: There are no steps that could exclude the possibility of Germany's unification.
However, the basic problem with all such proposals was recognized:
Churchill: I should not like to be understood as not favouring the partition of Germany. But I wanted to say that if Germany is broken up into several parts without these parts being combined then, as Marshal Stalin said, the time will come when the Germans will unite.
Stalin: There are no steps that could exclude the possibility of Germany's unification.
Then why the "Rhenish Republic" movement meet so much hostility from the German public? If German identity was nearly inexistant as many people here claim why German history in the 19th century was the way it was? If German identity was so weak how Hitler's nationalist rhetoric gained power?
On-topic: It certainly was possible in WW2, in WW1 nope, unless the allies were willing to occupy the entire country and stay there for some years.
Ha, good joke. This "republic" existed only in a few blocks in Munich. Pretty looooooooong way from here to nearly independent.
As a state, but not as a nation. This collective memory goes way back further.
Speaking as a German here: NO! Definitely No! Not even a chance. I am curious. How did you came to this conclusion?
Speaking as a German as well: one has to take into account that the regional differences and identities within the German Nation are IMHO rather strong- and with the history of German multi-centrism and federalism, the possibility for a split is there.
See, for example, the way Austria took its final "way out" of Germany after 1945. If Bavaria would have been granted the same treatment.... Munich would perhaps also not later have reunited with "the Prussians".
Generally, I would list these factors as pivotal in order to make a long-term split at least more realistic:
- respect the actual tribal borders: an independant Northrhine-Westphalia? Would be an endless Belgian-esque struggle between Rhenanians and Westphalians. Akin to that, a state in the borders of the GDR would have the problem of putting the traditional rivalry between Brandenburg-Prussians and Saxons under one roof.
- the more, the merrier: if you have a hegemonial state similar to the FRG which can claim to be the "actual Germany", you create a Center of gravity which might pull smaller states back into reunification.
- dare to restore: a successful restauration of smaller dynasties might make a re-unification rather complicated and would help to foster the regional identities
- the common European house: a functioning European Community, similar to the structures of OTL, would be rather helpful......as the existence of several smaller German statelets would multiply its combined diplomatic influence. Also, the economic need for a purely German Customs Union resp. Currency Union would not be there. People often Forget, that both were important Motors of the German Unification Process in the 19th century as well.
- avoid to put the German sides on different ideological sides. It will create a situation in which their system of government is the only "raison d'etre".
- keep the population movements of 1945ff to a minimum. The influx of millions of refugees from the lost East did a lot to break up the regional identities.
- "no silly games": as I pointed out in the Catherverse (and had been retconned by now), a situation like an insular West-Berlin is not feasible without the OTL-situation and only creates a constant reminder that a partition of Germany is unnatural.
- "give them a rest": the more tensions there would be after the split with non-German neighbours, or the more neighbours would try to make use of the split..... the more fervently Germans would desire to become strong and united again.
Yes, this is all true, but look at what he said:
And I dont believe this for a second. Ten years ago it was en vogue to call oneself European first German second. I haven seen some of this guys on years.
And never a Firesian first, German second. The regional differences and identities are strong, but not that strong. The breakup after WW2 needed boots on the ground and a defeated nation to work.
altamiro
Banned
One potential alternative would be to recreate Germany as a far more loose confederation after WW2, giving the states far more power similar to Switzerland - then just the internal bickering would prevent the overall confederation from doing anything drastic towards its neighbours.