German Main Battle Tank

The recent German tank threads have made me re-think, "If someone had the idea in the early 1930s would it have been possible to design one general purpose tank to the job of Panzers III and IV?"

My ideal would simply to build more Panzer IV in place of the Panzer III, which would be armed the 75mm L/48 gun from the start.

However, its more likely that 75% of production would be completed as battle tanks with the 50mm gun and 25% as close support tanks with the 75mm L/24. That is until the T-34 was encountered and production of the 50mm and 75mm L/24 was terminated in favour of the 75mm L/48 gun. It would also be feasible to refit the surviving tanks completed with the 50mm and short 75mm with the long 75mm.

The source I have says that about 18,000 Panzer III chassis and about 12,000 Panzer IV chassis were built for a combined total of about 30,000. If only one design had been built could the Germans have built more than 30,000?
 
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Deleted member 1487

I did a thread on this a while back about German producing only the Pz IV. Economies of scale would ensure it would be produced in greater numbers than the Pz III and IV separately. I cannot find it right now, but in the end it would have made a big difference in production and simplified a lot.
 
Although I admire the Czech LT-38 greatly I now think that the Germans should have cancelled the Czech Army order for 150 that they inherited and ordered more Panzer IV's from CKD. Or if it was too late to do that only accept 150 before having the firm go over to Panzer IV production in the interests of standardisation.

As the Panzer IV was heavier and had a more powerful engine a one-to-one substitution is probably not possible. However, the greater firepower and protection might make up for the reduction in numbers. Furthermore the Panzer IV was an effective tank for longer so more Panzer IV gun tanks were probably built in place of the Pz-38 based Marders before switching to the JagdPz-IV instead of the JagdPz-38.
 

Deleted member 1487

Although I admire the Czech LT-38 greatly I now think that the Germans should have cancelled the Czech Army order for 150 that they inherited and ordered more Panzer IV's from CKD. Or if it was too late to do that only accept 150 before having the firm go over to Panzer IV production in the interests of standardisation.

As the Panzer IV was heavier and had a more powerful engine a one-to-one substitution is probably not possible. However, the greater firepower and protection might make up for the reduction in numbers. Furthermore the Panzer IV was an effective tank for longer so more Panzer IV gun tanks were probably built in place of the Pz-38 based Marders before switching to the JagdPz-IV instead of the JagdPz-38.
They couldn't; CKD couldn't make tanks over 16 tons with equipment on hand, Germany would have had to produce the industrial equipment to upgrade the line, which would have meant no tanks and setback German industrial equipment production for other things. So it was a choice of no tanks or 150 38ts. I'd say keep the chassis and make it for other stuff like the Wespe, Marder III as needed, and later Hetzer.
 
While I agree with both of you on how some production uniformity on the Panzer IV could only help, I think the more interesting alternative would be what if they took the same thinking an ended up at the wrong result. So what if they misguidedly settle on standardizing the Panzer III instead?

With hindsight we can see it as the inferior tank, but points in favor of which compared to the IV at the time: The III was cheaper and easier to produce than the IV, as seen in production numbers. Even more so with the intended simplification and standardization effect. The Panzer III was the planned anti-tank design, and had the capacity to mount 50mm and the 75mm L/24 for HE shells anyways, all of which was seen as perfectly sufficient at the time. And if that wasn't sufficient for the infantry support role the III also shared chassis with the Stug (the concept of which had already been envisioned by Manstein). If you have the Panzer III in the anti-tank role (with upgunning giving it HE capabilities as well) and the Stug in the fire support role, and can produce them in larger quantities, it makes the Panzer IV seem somewhat superfluous.

And then things are going to get bad. In Russia the L/60 can somewhat defeat the T-34 on even footing (which is bad, Germany can't afford to fight fairly), but the KV series will be practically invincible, and Germany will lack an effective long barreled tank until 1943 when the Panther is produced (as a limited production unit, the Tiger doesn't really come with enough quantity to make a difference).

Even then they're still shackled with the majority of their panzer forces being ineffective Panzer III's once the T-34/85 and M4 begin being used by the allies. That worked out pretty well with the left over Panzer IV's during the end of the war, but the Panzer III is probably deadweight unless someone can get really creative with it. A much earlier PAW 600 could probably fit in a Panzer II (though I find it a bit of a stretch when people claim it could somehow fit in a Pz38, it seems to have a similar profile and size to the L/60) and bring penetration up to combat standard, but has pretty much no range. The 20-ton Panther/VK20 could also be ready for production by the end of 1941/early 1942. That gives them a tank that can bring a 75mm L/43 onto the field, but has effectively no armor at all (at least it's mechanically reliable). If we accept the PAW divergence it could also mount the PAW 1000 though, in addition to giving the Heer a cheap AT gun. Desperation might force Germany to do such anyways until the 30-ton or 40-ton Panther design could be finalized. The Tiger might be a net loss in this scenario but I suppose the demand for it is going to be unavoidable anyways.

In the meantime, Germany is going to be churning out assault guns, tank destroyers and AT guns as a stopgap measure, in much greater numbers than OTL. An earlier movement to war economy footing would also help in that regard. That's going to more or less lock Germany into defensive warfare. Assault guns and panzerjagers (the majority of armored combat vehicles by 1943 probably) aren't really suited for defending against the Soviet style of operational warfare or for offensives or firebrigades. They'll be hell on the Western Front at a tactical level though (assuming the Western Front still happens). There might also be some production of Centauro-esque vehicles like the SdKfz 234 and Pz.Sfl.II in an attempt to restore some mobility to the Heer and under the principle of getting as many 75mm guns as possible out once the III is shown to be woefully deficient.

By that point pre-war tactics have been shattered by necessity, so you might see the role reversal of Germany attempting to fight a numbers game of cheap to produce vehicles that are not particularly exceptional in armor or armament but merely adequate, fighting against a Red Army choosing to use heavier more slower higher-quality production vehicles like the KV and IS series (the Red Army may have decided to focus on heavy tanks after observing the artificially inflated performance disparity between the Panzer III, T-34, and KV-1 during the early Barbarossa campaign).

In short I present to you, a total clusterfuck. I'll say it looks to lean towards a Germany-screw at first, though the right developments and decisions (and luck) might still allow the war to end somewhere around 1945, especially if the constraints and limitations of the Panzer III force Germany to make some rational 'evolve or die' decisions so to speak.
 

Deleted member 1487

I doubt they'd go for just the Pz III because they understood that chassis was too small for the necessary roles they had in mind; you could mod the Pz IV to be a lighter tank, you don't scale up the Pz III to be heavier.
 
They couldn't; CKD couldn't make tanks over 16 tons with equipment on hand, Germany would have had to produce the industrial equipment to upgrade the line, which would have meant no tanks and setback German industrial equipment production for other things. So it was a choice of no tanks or 150 38ts. I'd say keep the chassis and make it for other stuff like the Wespe, Marder III as needed, and later Hetzer.

Then in that case after production of the 150 LT-38s was completed switch to the ST-39 armed with the German 50mm gun instead of the Czech 47mm so at least there would be some standardisation in guns and ammunition.

Was the ST-39s turret ring large enough to allow an upgrade to the 75mm gun after the 50mm became obsolete?
 
Build the Panzer IV with the longer 75mm gun of the KwK 40 L/43 or L/48 gun from the onset and you've got a very competitive tank for the late 1930s.

What is really needed is a new design, with sloped armour, torsion bar suspension without interleaved wheels (for better use in winter conditions, etc.), and a design that can be easily produced. This would not be ASB territory for 1936-37 when the Panzer IV was being first manufactured.

Here's a diesel-powered Italian P26-40 tank from 1940. Note the sloped armour.

P26-40_tank.jpg


Why not use a Jumo aero diesel engine in the tank for better fire prevention and greater torque, etc? Why we're at it, build a single Sd.Kfz.251 based APC for the army around a diesel powered.

Here's another forum's idea of a sloped armour Panzer IV.

pz_kpfw__iv_ausf__k_prototype_by_withinamnesia-d7cwfsf.jpg


https://aw.my.com/pl/forum/showthread.php?535-Pz-Kpfw-IV-Nachtmahr
 

Deleted member 1487

Then in that case after production of the 150 LT-38s was completed switch to the ST-39 armed with the German 50mm gun instead of the Czech 47mm so at least there would be some standardisation in guns and ammunition.

Was the ST-39s turret ring large enough to allow an upgrade to the 75mm gun after the 50mm became obsolete?
I don't know if they had the equipment to switch to the ST-39. Probably just better to use the 38t chassis for various projects, as the ST-39 was an inferior Pz III.
 

Deleted member 1487

Why not use a Jumo aero diesel engine in the tank for better fire prevention and greater torque, etc? Why we're at it, build a single Sd.Kfz.251 based APC for the army around a diesel powered.
It used a lot of aluminum that Germany could not spare.
 

Deleted member 1487

So did the RR Merlin, which is why the British Army got the cast steel version, the Meteor. I see no reason the Jumo's land based variant would not do the same.
Not sure if the Jumo design would have had to be significantly altered by changing the metal.
 
I don't know if they had the equipment to switch to the ST-39. Probably just better to use the 38t chassis for various projects, as the ST-39 was an inferior Pz III.

I wonder if that is the reason why the Germans cancelled the ST-39 order that it inherited in favour of producing more LT-38 tanks.

However, I thought that although it was an inferior Panzer III it was better armed than the LT-38 and a Hetzer based on the ST-39 might have been better. Though the Germans might have ruined it by using the larger hull and greater internal space to fit the L/70 version of the 75mm.

The source I'm using says that about 18,000 Pz III, 12,000 Pz IV and 6,000 LT-38 chassis were built for a total of 36,000 AFVs. If standardisation on the Pz IV allows German factories to produce at least 36,000 chassis then the factories building the LT-38 based vehicles IOTL could be put to work making something completely different. My candidate would be another 6,000 Sd.Kfz. 251 half-tracks, which would increase the number built to about 21,000.
 
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Deleted member 1487

I wonder if that is the reason why the Germans cancelled the ST-39 order that it inherited in favour of producing more LT-39 tanks.

However, I thought that although it was an inferior Panzer III it was better armed than the LT-38 and a Hetzer based on the ST-39 might have been better. Though the Germans might have ruined it by using the larger hull and greater internal space to fit the L/70 version of the 75mm.

The source I'm using says that about 18,000 Pz III, 12,000 Pz IV and 6,000 LT-38 chassis were built for a total of 36,000 AFVs. If standardisation on the Pz IV allows German factories to produce at least 36,000 chassis then the factories building the LT-38 based vehicles IOTL could be put to work making something completely different. My candidate would be another 6,000 Sd.Kfz. 251 half-tracks, which would increase the number built to about 21,000.
The Czechs cancelled the ST-39 order after Munich.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_vz_39
Due to the worsening international situation, the army decided to order 300 tanks and, later, a further 150 more but the order was canceled after the Munich Agreement of 1938 gave the Sudetenland area of Czechoslovakia to Germany. After the occupation of the remainder of Czechoslovakia on March 15, 1939, representatives of the German armaments office selected the V-8-H for testing by the Army at Eisenach. As a result of a fortnight's testing, an order was issued in November 1939 for production of another prototype. This was to be delivered without turret and armament, with a concrete block to simulate the load. This marked a prototype V-8-HII (second option), or V-8-Hz (trial) in the second half of 1940, underwent tests in Germany at Kummersdorf. There was no production order as the V-8-H specification were similar to the already mass-produced Panzer III

I still think the 38t lines had more use for the Hetzer, Marder, and Wespe than for something else.
 
So did the RR Merlin, which is why the British Army got the cast steel version, the Meteor. I see no reason the Jumo's land based variant would not do the same.

The Rover Meteor was the same aluminium engine as the Merlin. Sub standard and rebuilt old Merlins were also fed into the production of Meteors. What was cast iron and steel were the ancillaries such as exhaust and so forth which used existing iron casting foundries and coped better with the high shock loads suffered by tanks on rough ground, whilst weight was not as important as in an aeroplane. Also many of the auxiliary drives and covers differed from the Merlin.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Rover Meteor was the same aluminium engine as the Merlin. Sub standard and rebuilt old Merlins were also fed into the production of Meteors. What was cast iron and steel were the ancillaries such as exhaust and so forth which used existing iron casting foundries and coped better with the high shock loads suffered by tanks on rough ground, whilst weight was not as important as in an aeroplane. Also many of the auxiliary drives and covers differed from the Merlin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Meteor
Also there were far fewer engines made from 1941-64 than the Germans would have needed for their tanks.
 
I still think the 38t lines had more use for the Hetzer, Marder, and Wespe than for something else.

Then in that case is this possible? According to the source I am using:

1,850 LT-38 chassis were built to the end of 1942 and 1,396 were completed as gun tanks.

9,137 Panzer III and IV chassis were built over the same period and 7,451 were completed as gun tanks.

After completing the first 150 as gun tanks the remaining LT-38 were completed as other types of AFV. That is about 1,250 fewer gun tanks, but more StuGs and Marders mounting the 75mm L/48.

At the same time another 1,250 Panzer IV chassis would be completed as gun tanks and there would be a corresponding reduction in the number of Panzer IV based StuGs.

That would allow the Panzer battalions to be standardised on one model in the period 1940-42 instead of 3 IOTL. There would also be an increase in firepower as all the tanks would be armed with the 75mm L/48 instead of a mix of 37mm, 50mm and 3 different calibres of 75mm.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Then in that case is this possible? According to the source I am using:

1,850 LT-38 chassis were built to the end of 1942 and 1,396 were completed as gun tanks.

9,137 Panzer III and IV chassis were built over the same period and 7,451 were completed as gun tanks.

After completing the first 150 as gun tanks the remaining LT-38 were completed as other types of AFV. That is about 1,250 fewer gun tanks, but more StuGs and Marders mounting the 75mm L/48?

At the same time another 1,250 Panzer IV chassis would be completed as gun tanks and there would be a corresponding reduction in the number of Panzer IV based StuGs.

That would allow the Panzer battalions to be standardised on one model in the period 1940-42 instead of 3 IOTL. There would also be an increase in firepower as all the tanks would be armed with the 75mm L/48 instead of a mix of 37mm, 50mm and 3 different calibres of 75mm.

Even if we assume economies of scale production boost there isn't enough Pz IV production until 1942 to justify ending Pz38t production until then. Its after 1942 that Pz IV chassis production really increases due to extra resources pumped into it. Hitler didn't really invest in Panzer production until 1942 when he realized he was stuck in a big ground war in the East with no end in sight and was still focused on fighting the Wallies until the disaster of the winter of 1941-42. So likely there is not enough to go around until 1942 when the Pz 38t is phased out and the chassis used for something else as per OTL.

Also its more likely the Pz IV is equipped with the L40,8 gun that Rheinmetall developed in 1934-35:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pz.Sfl._II
It was a dual purpose AT/HE gun. After 1941 then they upgrade to the L43/48.
 
Even if we assume economies of scale production boost there isn't enough Pz IV production until 1942 to justify ending Pz38t production until then. Its after 1942 that Pz IV chassis production really increases due to extra resources pumped into it. Hitler didn't really invest in Panzer production until 1942 when he realized he was stuck in a big ground war in the East with no end in sight and was still focused on fighting the Wallies until the disaster of the winter of 1941-42. So likely there is not enough to go around until 1942 when the Pz 38t is phased out and the chassis used for something else as per OTL.

Also its more likely the Pz IV is equipped with the L40,8 gun that Rheinmetall developed in 1934-35:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pz.Sfl._II
It was a dual purpose AT/HE gun. After 1941 then they upgrade to the L43/48.

Fair enough, but what I proposed was along the lines of what you suggested in Post #14, that is to keep the Pz38 in production, but to build all but the first 150 chassis as AFVs rather than gun tanks. Therefore 1,250 of the chassis completed as gun tanks IOTL would be completed as StuGs ITTL. It might have been called the StuG 38. The source I am using says 1,521 StuGs based on the Panzer III were built up to the end of 1942 so the first 1,250 of them would be completed as Panzer IV gun tanks instead.
 

Deleted member 1487

Fair enough, but what I proposed was along the lines of what you suggested in Post #14, that is to keep the Pz38 in production, but to build all but the first 150 chassis as AFVs rather than gun tanks. Therefore 1,250 of the chassis completed as gun tanks IOTL would be completed as StuGs ITTL. It might have been called the StuG 38. The source I am using says 1,521 StuGs based on the Panzer III were built up to the end of 1942 so the first 1,250 of them would be completed as Panzer IV gun tanks instead.
A StuG 38 is just the Hetzer. If they had the idea having a Hetzer from 1940 on with the L40,8 gun would have been a serious help. Having StuG IVs is still necessary IMHO, but having Hetzers for 1941 is pretty big too; too bad for the Germans they didn't think of that until 1944 as a result of Alkett being bombed out and StuG production being wiped out forcing the Hetzer improvisation.
 
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