ThePest179
Banned
What would be the farthest possible reach of the Mongol Empire at any point in history that it was around for? What would the repercussions be if they entered areas they couldn't or didn't enter in OTL?
Maximum extant of Mongol imperialism
- Thread starter ThePest179
- Start date
Put off Ogadei Khan's death by two years and you'd have the Mongols at the Alps, Pyrenees, and Carpathians no problem.
deathscompanion1
Banned
I don't think so. Not exactly good territory for large scale cavalry armies, Western Europe has rivers and forests and less in the way of open grassy plains. The Mongols disliked fighting in places that couldn't sustain their horses.
Deleted member 67076
The Carpathian area is great for horses. They could use that as as their new vase and launch campaigns into Europe like the Magyars did centuries ago.
deathscompanion1
Banned
But that requires a sustained campaign and as soon as the Khan dies it will all be for nothing.
What makes Western Europe different than China or Iran? Both of these areas were conquered by the Mongols, but aren't Open Grasslands.
Forum user bias about Europe. There is a lot here in ah since mongol invasion of Europe was discussed here not so long ago and here were a lot who thinks the invulnerability of Europe compared to china vs the mongols.
The Chinese had rivers too, forests too, and good walled cities.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
They're white people.
I am kidding but seriously some people in AH.com have a not so subtle bias.
What China had though that Europe doesn't is a heaping pile of money and stuff to take. There's very little of that in Europe, what Europe does have though is a long series of drawn out slogs with little loot at the end of the tunnel. The mongols will give up on Europe fairly quickly after attempting conquest. Europe isn't going to be worth the effort to conquer large parts of it. The rich parts of Europe aren't even near the mongols, which further dissinsentivizes long term involvement.
A third attempt at Japan might be successful. Tibet is possible, as they did invade Afghanistan and northern India (known as Mughals). Further south is problematical as the heat & humidity isn't kind to their weapons tech. The Javan expedition fell apart due to their bows de-laminating in combat due to the tropical climate. Southern China, South India and south-east Asia are safe from direct control.
Anatolia, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt, the Arabian Gulf States, Oman,Yemen, the Hejaz, North Africa (including Morocco) and Ethiopia are also possible if the Mongols can maintain cohesion.
Europe would fall in the face of a determined Mongol onslaught. Simply because it is just like everyone else the Mongols faced. Too focused on short term gains to focus on the long term picture. Hence the Austrians (Hapsburgs), and his own nobles, stabbing Bela in the back when the Mongols invaded Hungary.
Anatolia, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt, the Arabian Gulf States, Oman,Yemen, the Hejaz, North Africa (including Morocco) and Ethiopia are also possible if the Mongols can maintain cohesion.
Europe would fall in the face of a determined Mongol onslaught. Simply because it is just like everyone else the Mongols faced. Too focused on short term gains to focus on the long term picture. Hence the Austrians (Hapsburgs), and his own nobles, stabbing Bela in the back when the Mongols invaded Hungary.
They could have tried India, but OTL they later did and were defeated by Alauddin Khilji. And if they focus a massive army on India, then those are more troops that don't expand elsewhere.
This is true that Germany isn't richer than china. However, Constantinople is within their reach. They are in Carpathia.
This isn't 19th century where Western Europe is the richest part of Europe. It truly shows how biased ah forumers are.
Exactly. Germany and most of Europe (if not all) was considerably poorer than China, India or the Middle East. So there isn't a lot of reason for the Mongols to try to conquer Europe. Since Europe isn't good horse country and thus it means it will cause the Mongols a lot of effort to conquer Europe, they probably won't try. It is not worth the trouble (although if they realy wanted to they probably could). If they go for Europe, they will go after the richer parts, like the Byzantines or maybe Italy.
I could see them taking Japan with better luck, northern Vietnam is also possible, as is Egypt, Poland and Hungary and with some real wanking (beyond the wank that was RL) the ERE and parts of the HRE, this is assuming the Khan lives to be 120 years or more. I do not see them going much further than this, they are already extremely spread out, and logistics and communication is a real issue, the Mongols did not attend Hogwarts, contrary to popular beliefs. On top of that in such a large empire political strife is unavoidable, especially at this point in time. Already in our timeline the Empire was spread to its breaking point, communication breakdown and infighting was unavoidable, with even more conquests it's going to get WORSE.
On top of that, there are not many suitable targets.
Southeast Asia is humid and jungle, I see the Mongols having less success than the Chinese did.
India, again, hot, humid and strong kingdoms in their own right.
Ethiopia, very far away from the Mongol centre of power with terrain highly unsuitable for horse soldiers.
North Africa, where's the incentive? And again, extremely far away.
Scandinavia, going through snowy, freezing, forested swamps to conquer poor and warlike lands seems to be the definition of pointless.
HRE, it can definitely be raided and parts can be conquered, but it's so far away, too decentralized and forested and too far away from the mongol core to take all of it in any timely fashion before the mongols fall apart.
On top of that, there are not many suitable targets.
Southeast Asia is humid and jungle, I see the Mongols having less success than the Chinese did.
India, again, hot, humid and strong kingdoms in their own right.
Ethiopia, very far away from the Mongol centre of power with terrain highly unsuitable for horse soldiers.
North Africa, where's the incentive? And again, extremely far away.
Scandinavia, going through snowy, freezing, forested swamps to conquer poor and warlike lands seems to be the definition of pointless.
HRE, it can definitely be raided and parts can be conquered, but it's so far away, too decentralized and forested and too far away from the mongol core to take all of it in any timely fashion before the mongols fall apart.
Deleted member 67076
You know the Mongols weren't just a cavalry army right? Especially not after they conquered Persia and started conscription and recruitment. In any case that's not necessarily barrier, the Huns conquered Germany with little effort.
2,3 years at the most and Hungary wold have been subdued. They wiped out most of their army IOTL with little effort and slashed the population very quickly. If they were serious they could have easily established control without batting an eyelash.
And for those saying that the Mongols will eventually have to return, here's an idea, have the Khan (I think it was Odegai at the time) die earlier and be replaced by a good, young successor that wants conquest. Follow this up with a launch of new campaigns using conscripts from the Pannonian Khanate and the Balkans, along with reinforcements from Persia, China and Central Asia. Poland, East Germany, the Balkans should fall pretty easily. Italy is also likely to be conquered and sacked.
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