Ultimate Paragon
Banned
What if Gustavus Adolphus wasn't killed at the Battle of Lützen? Would it have shortened the Thirty Years' War?
WI: Gustavus Adolphus survives Lützen
- Thread starter Ultimate Paragon
- Start date
definatley, Once Mercy was gone the Hapsburgs lacked a credible general to halt Adolph's advance. Their only hope might have been more competent danes but the danes were protestant too. So I think the HRE would have to give up even more than what it lost at westphhalia to the german princes.
Frankly I'm unsure... on the one hand Gustavus Adolphus would definitely lead the Protestants to an even greater victory than his former friends and Captains did, but would the French alliance hold? What I mean is that Richelieu is a smart man and would know that any alliance led by Gustavus Adolphus would have a very good chance of becoming a -true- Swedish Empire... so might he just cut the support of the French crown (money mostly, but also some mercenaries if I recall correctly) at an opportune moment to try and balance the odds?
don't think so for one reason. To Richelieu the Hapsburgs of Austria and Spain were the most major threat. In his eyes whatever could weaken the HRE would help France. As for Sweden, realistically France and Sweden didn't have much to quarrel over and I doubt he would be worried about Sweden controlling the Baltic. Besides even with Gustavus I expect the german princes in the north to turn on him once the HRE is beaten. On top of that like otl I see the various nations in central and eastern Europe as well as Northern Europe gang up lik otl on the Swedes and so Swedens days as a great power were honestly numbered. The territories it controlled were just simply contested by too many other powers.
Sir Chaos
Banned
Would Gustavus Adolphus´ survival - let´s say he is seriously wounded, but recovers and decides that this was God´s way of telling him not to lead cavalry charges in person any more - lead to the Imperial not assassinating Wallenstein?
I get the impression that a major part of why the Imperials decided they could afford to get rid of Wallenstein was that there was no unstoppable Swedish bogeyman threatening them any more that they´d Wallenstein to keep in check.
Or maybe - I´ve read the same series of novels as Shiva - they try and fail to assassinate Wallenstein, and he decides working with the Swedes was the safer prospect?
I get the impression that a major part of why the Imperials decided they could afford to get rid of Wallenstein was that there was no unstoppable Swedish bogeyman threatening them any more that they´d Wallenstein to keep in check.
Or maybe - I´ve read the same series of novels as Shiva - they try and fail to assassinate Wallenstein, and he decides working with the Swedes was the safer prospect?
I see so then yes in short term Sweden will dominate the region
Consider this my endorsement for this idea for whatever that might be worth.
OT it would shorten the 30 Years war and Wallenstein would probably get to live a bit longer than OTL for reasons mentioned above, the problem however lies in the fact that Gustavus would probably piss it all away on something stupid.
While the man himself was intelligent and understood politics and warfare he also was not the most cautious man. Expect to see Sweden win the 30 years war but then throw away its gains either suppressing Northern German princes that don't bend their knees quite right or on the old Polish v Swedish Vasa rivalry.
I think they could have kept it a while, providing North Germany was disunited and they could play the princes off against each other. Denmark-Norway was never a serious threat nor were the Poles for that matter. I think as long as you can curb Russia from becoming the juggernaut it was by blocking its expansion west, Sweden should retain the region at least till Nationalism and German Unification hits.
I agree with this, although Sweden's possession of the region might butterfly nationalism or result in a different form of German nationalism, if one arises at all. If the Pomeranians are fond enough of Swedish rule, they might just consider themselves German speaking Swedes.
Denmark makes much more sense, if the strategy is to control the Baltic sea
Ultimate Paragon
Banned
Do you think Sweden would eventually take the whole thing? Would there be an earlier Partition of Poland? Or would a Polish rump-state survive?
Driftless
Donor
If Gustavus Adolphus lives longer, and continues to prosper; are the Protestants able to retain control over more of central and southern Germany? What would be the knock-ons to that event?
Say the Protestants prevent the retaking of Regensburg, which could have prevented the disaster of Nordlingen.
Say the Protestants prevent the retaking of Regensburg, which could have prevented the disaster of Nordlingen.
Last edited: