WI: The BEF tried to hold dunkirk?

They are quickly forced to surrender, and whoever made that decision gets courtmartialed for gross incompetence.
 
They would have been surrounded by German forces and overwhelmed rather quickly. The failure to evacuate the Continent and the loss of the BEF would have given the Labour Party the ammunition the needed to overthrow the Tories in a vote of no confidence.
 
The problem as I see it is that Lord Gort and Gen Ironsides had already come to the conclusion that the French Army was a broken Reed and incapable of standing against the German Army or indeed mounting a meaningful counter attack.

Belgium was on the verge of Surrendering (or had surrendered depending on the date) thus releasing an entire German Army group from the North East.

So once the decision to withdraw had been made this had several knock on effects - Vehicles and certain weapons were destroyed (ie artillery and AAA) along with Ammunition stocks etc and Entire formations were gradually evacuated.

Had the decision been made to hold the port indefinately at this time instead of ordering a withdrawl and destruction of stocks etc then this would not have happened and a much larger perimeter would have been held.

This would have forced the Germans Armies engaged in the area to fight a lot harder than they had historically up to that point.

As it was most of the efforts to reduce the perimeter by force failed with heavy losses and only suceeded when the Perimter was shrunk in line with the reducing force within.

Could the BEF + French forces in the Perimeter be supplied indefiantely through the damaged port? - I'm not sure #

But I do beleive that the port / Dunkirk Perimeter could have been held for longer than it was

Ultimately though unless the French Army performed an ASB style turn around - France is still going to come to terms with Germany and the British Gov is going to order a withdrawl - and Op Dynamo goes ahead and the upshot is more casaulties on both sides.
 
- France is still going to come to terms with Germany .

Maybe, maybe not. The image of the british troops evacuating thanks to the sacrifice of the French troops and leaving the french to be captured by the Germans, while false, existed and contributed quite a lot to the feeling of defeatism. A drawn-out battle at Dunkirk might have turned the French government around and led to a FTL/FFO scenario. It was that close.
 
Maybe, maybe not. The image of the british troops evacuating thanks to the sacrifice of the French troops and leaving the french to be captured by the Germans, while false, existed and contributed quite a lot to the feeling of defeatism. A drawn-out battle at Dunkirk might have turned the French government around and led to a FTL/FFO scenario. It was that close.

what is an FTL scenario ?
 
Maybe, maybe not. The image of the british troops evacuating thanks to the sacrifice of the French troops and leaving the french to be captured by the Germans, while false, existed and contributed quite a lot to the feeling of defeatism. A drawn-out battle at Dunkirk might have turned the French government around and led to a FTL/FFO scenario. It was that close.

The French airforce was gutted, the cream of the French army destroyed or a disorganised rabble and government ministers in generals in tears.

Adding 300,000 British corpse does nothing but delay the inevitable the French needed a new doctrine and new officer corps not something you can do while fighting for your life against a powerful foe that at best will be delayed a few weeks.
 
what is an FTL scenario ?

Fantasque Time Line. The original/French version of the FFO/APOD work (FFO= France Fight On). A serious alt-history work on a TL in which, due to Reynaud's mistress having a car accident, France doesn't surrender in 1940 and evacuate to North Africa. There are currently 2 published books for the basic TL (from May 1940 to June 42) and a couple additional ones as ebooks.

http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/ (note: as I said, it;s in french)
 
Maybe, maybe not. The image of the british troops evacuating thanks to the sacrifice of the French troops and leaving the french to be captured by the Germans, while false, existed and contributed quite a lot to the feeling of defeatism. A drawn-out battle at Dunkirk might have turned the French government around and led to a FTL/FFO scenario. It was that close.

Not true - A corpse cannot be made to feel - the French Military was defeated and its command structure incapable of any sort of decisive action and its government in disarray.
 
I wonder how a decision to hold Dunkirk may have affected the RN. With the bridgehead being attacked by the Germans, the RN may have to steam into the Channel with the heavy units to shell the Germans.
It would be interesting to see how the Luftwaffe would perform against them.
 
Not entirely true. The French Airforce was avoiding committing its best formations to battle, instead of fighting a war that was perceived to have already been lost.

Read this article and "A Blunted Sickle"

I've never been too clear on air action during the Battle of France. According to this article, French H75s and MS.406 aircraft had superlative kill ratios against German aircraft, and even the humble Caudron fared well. I've read a first person report of the Caudron's abilities, and it doesn't seem to be the same aircraft, since a squadron was destroyed. The British evaluated the H75, as the Mohawk, and deemed it unworthy, and yet it had a reportedly fantastic kill ratio. German evaluation of the H75 seems to mirror British opinion, and yet this marvellous kill ratio remains. Somebody isn't being quite truthful, but it's too late to find the source of true data.
 
The French airforce was gutted, the cream of the French army destroyed or a disorganised rabble and government ministers in generals in tears.

Adding 300,000 British corpse does nothing but delay the inevitable the French needed a new doctrine and new officer corps not something you can do while fighting for your life against a powerful foe that at best will be delayed a few weeks.

They did put up a pretty decent defense of the Weygand line until overwhelmed! Imagine if they felt the British had put up a great fight for France, how could the French do any less! Certainly a British(with quite a few Frenchmen) FTL battle at Dunkirk would have strengthened the hands of the Generals and Politicians who wanted to fight on albeit from North Africa.

Of course such a battle of attrition would have required several weeks and probably heavy artillery to reduce the ports defenses. That's a lot of time for a very nervous Hitler and OKH. OTL the perimeter defenses held against all attacks until the end. I could see Hitler ordering in the panzers (into the kind of battle they where most unsuited to) and the elite of his army taking significant losses. The gap between the Battle of the North and the Battle of France would be longer helping the French prepare. Therefore the Waygand line might hold due to the pause and as there would be less panzers! After that there would be lots of butterflies!
 
They did put up a pretty decent defense of the Weygand line until overwhelmed! Imagine if they felt the British had put up a great fight for France, how could the French do any less! Certainly a British(with quite a few Frenchmen) FTL battle at Dunkirk would have strengthened the hands of the Generals and Politicians who wanted to fight on albeit from North Africa.

Of course such a battle of attrition would have required several weeks and probably heavy artillery to reduce the ports defenses. That's a lot of time for a very nervous Hitler and OKH. OTL the perimeter defenses held against all attacks until the end. I could see Hitler ordering in the panzers (into the kind of battle they where most unsuited to) and the elite of his army taking significant losses. The gap between the Battle of the North and the Battle of France would be longer helping the French prepare. Therefore the Waygand line might hold due to the pause and as there would be less panzers! After that there would be lots of butterflies!

The British did put up a great fight for France so did the French army in places. They still lost. The Germans went around and smashed them. Adding a disaster that hurt the Germans to a number of disasters that didn't hurt the Germans isn't going to do much for Morale.

Instead of the BEF running away its the BEF wiped out. How would that make morale any better?

The French army fighting on a bit longer just pushed up losses once the Sickle Cut succeeded the Germans could not be stopped any where for long and the French military was in tatters. That isn't to say they couldn't fight heroically in places but they had lost too much too quickly and weren't ready for a modern war those deficiencies and the weakness of the officer corps was well known by the French fighting men and the government.

Its not hard to make the allies do better since OTL they did just about everything they could to lose but a costlier German win seems more plausible than anything else by this point.
 
Its not hard to make the allies do better since OTL they did just about everything they could to lose but a costlier German win seems more plausible than anything else by this point.

A loss of metropolitan France by August or September doesn't mean France is out of the war.
 
A loss of metropolitan France by August or September doesn't mean France is out of the war.

It didn't OTL.

But I think they would still surrender for the same reasons as OTL. The heart of their country and most of their population was in enemy hands. By collaborating they could hope to be on the winning side just as they could by fighting on.

This was a thing OTL with many supporting the Vichy regime (more than Free France) and I think that ITTL there would still be an official surrender so as to try and play both sides.
 
I don't think Dunkirk can be resupplied effectively. The harbour is too easily shut down by bombing, and it's too far from the UK to maintain effective fighter cover. Without resupply, evacuation must follow.
 
Would you need all the troops that historically were in the Dunkirk pocket to hold the perimeter? I can't believe you'd need 300,000 plus. What would be the forces required to hold a defensible perimeter around the port? A corps, 2 divisions? Does anyone have an idea?
 
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