English language - no Norman conquest.

It's

It's

Banned
What would English look and sound like if there had been no Norman conquest? Apart from the ruling classes speaking the Norman French of the time for 2 centuries, what lasting impacts did they have on the English language? Was it more than vocabulary?

Linguists especially are welcome to contribute.
 

libbrit

Banned
Twould surely sound considerably more north-german/Scandinavian. Not least because if the Normans didnt invade, England would continue to be a battleground for various Nordic kings-Perhaps eventually, English would be just another Scandinavian language,somewhat different, but broadly intelligible to the average Swede or Dane
 
FleetMac

FleetMac

Sevarics said:
Because language is a word derived from the Norman conquest...
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Ah, the word itself and not English (I thought steve was trying to be clever about "English isn't a real language" or somesuch). Yeah, it'd be called a "sprach/speech", or "leid" or "reerd", something like that. I guess just "tung" would be similar enough to OTL at least.
 
The Professor

The Professor

libbrit said:
Twould surely sound considerably more north-german/Scandinavian. Not least because if the Normans didnt invade, England would continue to be a battleground for various Nordic kings-Perhaps eventually, English would be just another Scandinavian language,somewhat different, but broadly intelligible to the average Swede or Dane
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Well, no. But considerably more nordic influence than OTL.

FleetMac said:
Ah, the word itself and not English (I thought steve was trying to be clever about "English isn't a real language" or somesuch). Yeah, it'd be called a "sprach/speech", or "leid" or "reerd", something like that. I guess just "tung" would be similar enough to OTL at least.
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Or even a Cwiss.
 

steve_wilson

The idea of "tung" makes me wonder if kennings would, over the centuries, become "official" rather than being considered as something like slang. They could perhaps resemble Cockney rhyming slang in that the second part becomes redundant, so that "swan" means swan, but "swan's" means sea, as in the Old English "swan's road".

Of course, our greatest hope would be that an A-S aristocracy would take care to preserve literature in their tongue, we have so little.
 

yulzari

ramones1986 said:
More or less an insular variant of Frisian
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Indeed yes. Frisian is the closest low German to English (or the other way round if you prefer). I find that it is the difference in spelling and pronunciation that make Dutch less intelligible to the English than German. If the spelling conventions of Dutch and English were similar mutual reading would be easier.

Perhaps a POD would be Flemish support for the English against the Norwegians and Normans and a linking of the ruling families leading to a single Anglo-Flemish kingdom and a received common formal language.
 
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lord caedus

Here is Justin Rye's attempt at what he thinks English would be like (with an AH scenario alongside the linguistic changes from Old English to *English).
 
FleetMac

FleetMac

steve_wilson said:
The idea of "tung" makes me wonder if kennings would, over the centuries, become "official" rather than being considered as something like slang. They could perhaps resemble Cockney rhyming slang in that the second part becomes redundant, so that "swan" means swan, but "swan's" means sea, as in the Old English "swan's road".

Of course, our greatest hope would be that an A-S aristocracy would take care to preserve literature in their tongue, we have so little.
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That's an interesting observation, the development of poetry and slang becoming an official register (or at least a common one). Regardless if London ends up the capital, I think the region would have a fair amount of influence due to its suitability as a link to the Continent and a good port for trade; who knows, maybe the Cockney dialect becomes more "prestigious" than OTL if something like it comes about?


lord caedus said:
Here is Justin Rye's attempt at what he thinks English would be like (with an AH scenario alongside the linguistic changes from Old English to *English).
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I like the idea behind that alt-English broadly, but I disagree with many of his assumptions (e.g. assuming r-obstruent merging despite a lack of it in OTL as an consistent feature, the near-total loss of the genitive case wherein it survived even in OTL, velar h-softening happening in the 1200s despite it not happening until roughly Shakespeare's era...really the whole notion that a Norman-less English would be even more barebones than OTL), as well as generally disliking the setting of the scenario.
 
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steve_wilson

Of course, slang has often become accepted English, in phrase if not individual word. Sometime it goes wrong, so that "Donkey's Years" (a long time) is derived from the Cockney rhyming slang "Donkey's Ears" just meaning Years.

Some rhyming slang has at least become respectable, "berk" meaning a foolish or slightly objectionable person, comes from "Berkeley Hunt" or "Berkshire Hunt". "Tea Leaf" (thief) is also widespread.

With regards poetry, it could be argued that the entire language has followed the lead of Shakespeare-era poets in dropping the pronunciation of the "e" in such words as "learned" and "loved", which would be done in poetry and verse-plays to make a line fit the metrical scheme.

Yes, I am aware that the last "E" is still heard in "learned friend" in Court, but you know what I mean.
 
Umbric Man

Umbric Man

yulzari said:
Indeed yes. Frisian is the closest low German to English (or the other way round if you prefer). I find that it is the difference in spelling and pronunciation that make Dutch less intelligible to the English than German. If the spelling conventions of Dutch and English were similar mutual reading would be easier.

Perhaps a POD would be Flemish support for the English against the Norwegians and Normans and a linking of the ruling families leading to a single Anglo-Flemish kingdom and a received common formal language.
Click to expand...

Throw me in as another supporter of Norman-less English as Island Frisian and Frisian as Continental Norman-less English!
 

riggerrob

Umbric Man said:
Throw me in as another supporter of Norman-less English as Island Frisian and Frisian as Continental Norman-less English!
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Without Norman-French influence, modern English would have a much shorter vocabulary, lacking all those multi-syllabic words of Latin origin.
 
FleetMac

FleetMac

riggerrob said:
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Without Norman-French influence, modern English would have a much shorter vocabulary, lacking all those multi-syllabic words of Latin origin.
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Yes, because you can't have a large vocabulary without tons and tons of borrowings, just ask the Dutch :rolleyes:. I just love how people assume this MUST be the case with English, even though there's been a ton of OE words lost during the late Middle English and Early Modern English periods, and AIUI often displaced by Franco-Latin words instead of just becoming synonyms. What's to stop them from making new words for new concepts a la German (which is a practice attested in OTL Old English) or borrowing from non-Norman sources, exactly?
 
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