Soviets join the axis How does world war 2 turn out
- Thread starter walmart
- Start date
Hm, perhaps Hitler dies in 1940 after the Fall of France, and his successor decides not to do Barbarossa?
Perhaps France and Britain bomb Baku oil fields during the Winter War, and Hitler dies after the fall of France? Basically, you need Hitler dead.
The Invasion of France goes nowhere. Britain eventually has to make peace, and falls into an American orbit.
Japan still gets wiped out.
The Soviets eventually get bled white trying to take over China.
Japan still gets wiped out.
The Soviets eventually get bled white trying to take over China.
There were some talks about the USSR joining the axis in 1939-1941 and Stalin wanted to join the axis
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What reason would the Soviets have to 'take over China'? This is completely irrational.
Short of outright genocide, it would be completely impossible to police a hostile population of such proportions; and if a union of these two countries was somehow established on an equal footing, the centre of politics would almost automatically shift from Russia to China.
RodentRevolution
Banned
Well really complex to say what exactly would happen. However Britain and America now have a clearer mission with the totalitarian states largely lined up together (admittedly a few authoritarian states will still jump on the Allied bandwagon but likely only at the end as per OTL)
What you will have to look at is why Stalin signs on? It may be to make a grab for Turkey in which case they will sign on with the allies or it might be to try for Persia and possibly Iraq. This will certainly complicate the Allied defence of those regions though not make them impossible.
However Germany cannot afford to keep up paying for Soviet supplies even by barter arrangements so do the Soviets take the hit as if not you will still see a falling out and invasion by Germany at some point.
You also have an unholy mess when it comes to the division of spheres of influence in terms of China. The Soviets hope to control that entire space through their local communist apparatus and the Japanese would like to conquer it directly even though their army is very backwards throughout the war and it is only an equal to the USSR in terms of air power at the beginning of the conflict.
Do wonder how the Cambridge spies will react without the merest figleaf of anti-fascism?
Likely still ends with a Allied victory but could be much higher final body count.
There British were planning to bomb the Soviet oil fields, I believe. The plans were cancelled when France was suddenly beaten in six weeks. Had they lasted longer, and the British had gone ahead with their plan, Germany and the Soviet would have had a common enemy and joined forced.
Certainly the best and likely the only chance for an Axis victory in WW2 though provided the United States intervenes at some moment time is still very much against them. Whilst the Soviet Union will likely be far more intact without Barbarossa and will still likely be aware of Manhattan, to what extent they can play catch-up or sabotage it will likely determine whether you see a (far bloodier) Allied victory or an armistice that leaves much of Europe and Asia within the Axis sphere.
Maybe if the Soviets invaded Poland the day after Germany did. Perhaps this prompts the Western Allies to declare war on the USSR alongside Germany.
As irrational as the USSR joining the Axis.
Add it up. Japan was at war with and engaged in an ongoing conquest of China. Japan is part of the Axis, which puts China on the side of the allies.
Japan dukes it out with America, there's no way it can win. It's fleets are destroyed, its an island cut off from support, and atom bombs get dropped on it.
But it's Chinese holdings are up for grabs. The Soviets, who are not at war on their western front, sweep in through the thinly populated northern territories of China, link up with orphaned Japanese armies, and voila, they've conquered China. Or at least, that's probably the theory they're going to be selling each other.
Yeah, that's why the Mongols and Manchu and Japanese never bothered to invade China. You're right.
Because the USSR was so strongly committed to things like one man, one vote; free elections; and not looting the crap out of captured nations. Agreed. As historical precedent, we can cite the shift of the British Empire's capital from London to Delhi, a controversial move at the time.
Sabot Cat
Banned
Why not just continue propping up the KMT? Or settle with the CCP? Aside from Japan, there's two factions on the Chinese mainland, and both are fairly Soviet friendly.
Deleted member 1487
Stalin supported the KMT throughout most of the 1930s as he thought they were likely to win. If he's in the Axis with the Japanese then its likely he'd just support the Japanese in their victory.
Sure, that's another route. But I'd expect that a healthier and more expansive soviet union would be a lot more aggressive about taking over China. Let Germany have Europe, and Africa and the middle east if it can get it. Take the far east.
You gotta count on the fact that if Soviet judgement is bad enough to join the Axis, it's going to be consistently bad.
CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
The Axis was a specifically anti-communist alliance. And last time I checked, the Soviets were at least nominally communist.
EDIT: And that's without getting into all the minor disagreements between the Soviets and the Axis, like the German position that all Slavic people should be killed or enslaved.
EDIT: And that's without getting into all the minor disagreements between the Soviets and the Axis, like the German position that all Slavic people should be killed or enslaved.
RodentRevolution
Banned
At least one good reason would be to try and stop the Allies buying the Japanese off with a free hand in the Soviet Far East. Also Hitler and most people tended to overestimate Japanese capabilities vis-a-vis the Soviets.
RodentRevolution
Banned
The Balkan War solution you don't shoot your allies till you are ready.
Extra bonus points if they are not.
CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
I'm not saying it's impossible for the Germans and Soviets to play nice while both sides plan to stab each other in the back, since that's exactly what happened in OTL with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. But full-blown allies? Stalin might have been crazy, but he wasn't stupid.
If the Germans and the Soviets aren't fighting, that means that the Soviets are going to be looking elsewhere for all those armies to go. Would Japan even join the Axis if they thought the Soviet armies wouldn't be getting ground up by the Germans?