WI: Dutch never withdrew from Indonesia

So, the Netherlands IOTL retreated due to increasing insurgency, international condemnation and threatening to stop Marshall Plan aid to the Netherlands. The Dutch had won though, capturing the Indonesian leaders and lots of territory. Besides that, half of the Marshall Plan aid was spent on the Indonesian war IOTL, so I'm not sure the Dutch really needed it. So, the Dutch stay in Indonesia.

Since they were winning, let's assume they win ITTL. How would this impact Asian politics? Would Indonesia eventually go the way of Suriname, peaceful secession in the 70s/80s? Would a pariah Netherlands align with France in their attempt to make their own place for themselves independant of the US? Could the US afford to lose the Netherlands as ally, seeing as France was not for sure on the NATO side and the US needed a place to bring troops into in case of WW III?
 
This is ASB. The Dutch dont have the resources to win a war vs 70M nation in a 1945 PoD. In OTL, the dutch did try military option but could not hold the rural areas. In turn, they lost the cities as well eventually, most famous of it when Suharto took Yogyakarta from the Dutch.

Besides that, both US and USSR supported Indonesia.

Even without US and USSR's support, all these armed Indonesians are Japanese trained and armed which the Indonesians lacked in pre-WW2. You also had British Indian Army defectors as well as Japanese volunteers joining Indonesian cause.

The Indonesians were determined to win the war and skilled enough in western modern warfare to expel the Dutch, had more resources than Dutch by 1945
 
The Indonesians were determined to win the war and skilled enough in western modern warfare to expel the Dutch, had more resources than Dutch by 1945

Really? Sumatra and Java had been conquered. The leadership of the rebels had been captured. The Indonesian armed forces had been defeated, though not broken. These successes are pretty indicative to me that it wasn't asb,
 
Really? Sumatra and Java had been conquered. The leadership of the rebels had been captured. The Indonesian armed forces had been defeated, though not broken. These successes are pretty indicative to me that it wasn't asb,

It's more a matter of coming back and having to "redefeat" the, because uprising will be constant from then on I would think, only getting more violent and more prolonged as other countries around them go independent.
 
Really? Sumatra and Java had been conquered. The leadership of the rebels had been captured. The Indonesian armed forces had been defeated, though not broken. These successes are pretty indicative to me that it wasn't asb,

Conquered in the sense that the major cities had been taken, yes.

It'd have become like Vietnam- a slow burning insurgency that the Netherlands would have no hope of making progress against.
 
if the dutch is smart, they should actually immediately execute all independence leaders, that means if one is captured, they will soon dead and did not have time to write defenses, as well as rallying fellow prisoners and correspondence with anti colonial sympathizers in the USA and USSR.

That way they can really take advantage of their military progress while decapitating rebel leaders.

oh wait... Human Rights...

that way, soon after Dutch agreed with UN Charter, they are doomed to lost most of their colonies to independence movements. Seriously, I am Indonesian myself, and from what history tell us, the Dutch conquers Indonesia efficiently before 1920 by both Divide et Impera, followed by ruthless decapitation of anticolonial leaderships. Holding independence toughts not only earned you death, it will earn you your entire extended families and sympathisers death to deny them rallying figures, and the Dutch used to do this systematically after Diponegoran Wars in 1830s, to the last time this systematic (leadership) decapitations last used in Aceh Wars, 1910s.

In an ironic yet fitting sense, Ethical Politics is the one who ultimately bring the end of Dutch colonial rule... Hesitations to quickly deny the rebel leaderships and the fact that they still functions as rallying points even in prisons prove to be their undoing. Guerilla warfare can still run without peaders, but most of the people only want peace, reasonable living, and security... Leaderless guerrila ain't effective in the long run...

And still the very same Indonesian government fails to completely learn it too... If only they move fast enough to... (a certain now independent nation), as Suharto himself done in the other places with separatist movements (you know...)

PS : I'm not condoning ruthless and brutal subjungation tactics, but this just a detached analysis about history of Indonesia
 
So basically for The Netherlands to cement their control over Indonesia, they'd have to pull a Belgium? Man, that's grim. :eek:
 
yeah, and not to mention that will offend modern sensibilities as well as human rights. But that was basically extending what they already do here since 17th century.

the best bet for Dutch to save their face and earning positive relationships with Indonesia is actually agreed and recognize their Independence, while haggling over private assets and citizenships by legal and peaceful means. Not some half hearted Military invasion but not following with their own previous ruthless tactics. Seriously... Japanese occupiers are actually viewed MORE POSITIVELY here because they at least respect the local leaderships and actually planned to gave independence (as puppet I know, but still) in 1945. Indonesian governments can form and endure quickly because they based themselves upon Japanese plan to bleed the Dutch white, and to prove their points, many Japanese troops actually join forces with Indonesian Independence movements after Japan is defeated in WW2. Sure, they can be brutal with rebel sometimes but hey, at least they actually train and equip us, and their vision is acceptable (ousting European opressors, so their own opressions is accepted as temporary and justified measures)
 
Really? Sumatra and Java had been conquered. The leadership of the rebels had been captured. The Indonesian armed forces had been defeated, though not broken. These successes are pretty indicative to me that it wasn't asb,

Reconquered the cities, yes. Rural areas were never really reconquered by the Dutch both Java and Sumatra.

The ASB is continued occupation(winning the war/staying in Indonesia as per require of your OP) not ASB for winning a few battles. Dutch can win a few battles but can never win a war with a 1945 POD vs Indonesia. There is a difference between winning a battle and winning a war. The latter requires you to pacify/neutralize your opponent by overcoming the civilian populace/military as well industrial/manpower/natural resources of your opponent. The former only requires to be better in strategy/tactics/information and quality/quantity vs your opponent at the point of battle.
 
Not to mention, I can't imagine the Dutch public at home will be very happy that they're missing out on Marshall Aid to rebuild their nation for the sake of trying desperately to hold the East Indies, who will only become more and more violent in their opposition.
 
Make the surrender different: the Dutch, and the allies, really have to conquer Indonesia back from Japan. Soekrano etc. are executed by the western powers because they collaborated with the Japanese. After the war the allies have firm control instead of the OTL power vacuum that came after the nukes, and this control is returned to the Dutch. Something similar to the OTL Dutch-Indonesian union and the United States of Indonesia will probably occur in the 50's.

Fun fact for Geert Wilders, this would make the Netherlands the biggest muslim country in the world.
 
Make the surrender different: the Dutch, and the allies, really have to conquer Indonesia back from Japan. Soekrano etc. are executed by the western powers because they collaborated with the Japanese. After the war the allies have firm control instead of the OTL power vacuum that came after the nukes, and this control is returned to the Dutch. Something similar to the OTL Dutch-Indonesian union and the United States of Indonesia will probably occur in the 50's.

Fun fact for Geert Wilders, this would make the Netherlands the biggest muslim country in the world.
I'm not sure how you'd make the Dutch have to reconquer the East Indies (even without nukes you'd probably get a Japanese surrender either from the blockade or from Downfall), unless it's a Vietnam situation where the former DEI tries to gain independence after the war, and the colonial master goes all out to suppress it.

Even if you off Sukarno et al., there will be other nationalists rising up. The Dutch were fairly discredited at this point, no one either in Indonesia or abroad has much sympathy for their continued colonial presence, and they don't have the numbers or the will to enforce their continued control. It's not a coincidence that almost every colony went independent in the decades following WWII, despite the attempts of nations like France or Portugal to hold on by any means necessary.

Indonesia is perfect for a guerrilla insurgency, and eventually the Dutch will give up and go home. It's Vietnam, except the Dutch are way less able to fight it than either the French or the Americans.
 
Sure, the Dutch strategically won most of the battles in the Indonesian revolution. Too bad winning a war was never that simple.

That being said, the Republic winning the war was not inevitable. The Indonesian Revolution saw a lot of infighting. Was it not for Soekarno, the revolution could have collapsed in on itself. It's very unlikely, but it's possible to have a scenario that the Netherlands turn out to be the best of three or four evils for both the Americans and the local populace. Will it be pretty? Hell no. More will probably die there than during the Japanese occupation.

Now, let's assume that this somehow happened. What will happen next? First we have to catch up on some boring OTL stuff. I apologize for the incoming wall of text.

Well, the Dutch policy on what to do if they reclaimed the Indies gradually changed along the war. In 1942, after losing NEI, Queen Wilhelmina made a promise in a speech that the Netherlands will grant independence to her colony if they can ever retake Indonesia. She said:

"I visualize, without anticipating the recommendations of the future conference, that they will be directed towards a commonwealth in which the Netherlands. Indonesia, Suriname and Curacao will participate, with complete self-reliance and freedom of conduct for each part regarding its internal affairs, but with the readiness to render mutual assistance."​

Here's the catch though. She literally said that. It wasn't a translation. The promise of independence was only ever made by the Queen orally in a language that most of her people does not understand. So was it a sincere promise or a desperate attempt to appeal to the Americans and the British? Remember that this was the same Queen who approved of the Ethical Policy. You can read the full transcript of the speech here.

What we can say though, at the very start, the people in charge of preparing Indonesia for her independence were sincere in their wishes. Hubertus Johannes van Mook was born and raised in Indonesia. He was not trusted by many Dutch officials because he was a liberal from the Indies, which naturally meant he sympathized with the Indonesian national movement.

His right hand man was a Javanese man named Raden Abdulkadir Widjojoatmodjo. He studied Indology, and built his whole career upon his dream of an independent Indonesia.

What was the first thing they did when they landed in Batavia after the Japanese left? They paid Soekarno a visit, trying to find a way for them both to cooperate. It was clear though, that although their goals were similar, cooperation was impossible.

You see, the Dutch delegations plans was to have a federal Indonesian state which was still part of the Kingdom of The Netherlands. Indonesia will have its own parliament, its own Prime Minister, its own separate set of laws. Their head of state will still be the Dutch Monarch though, and the Netherlands will handle all foreign policy. The military was a complicated matter. It seems an awful lot like concealed imperialism, right? Well yeah, but for many Indonesian nationalists, it used to be everything they ever wanted. In 1936, the Indonesian members of the make-believe NEI parliament, Volksraad signed the Soetardjo Petition. The Volksraad only had advisory powers so it was flatly rejected by the colonial government. This was the stance most proponents of Indonesian Nationalism took before the Japanese came. It included Mohammad Hatta, one of proclamators of Indonesian independence, and Sutan Sjahrir, Indonesia's first Prime Minister. In fact, after the failed Communist Uprising in 1926 until the eve of war the popular line of Indonesian Nationalism advocated not their own state, but their own parliament.

Soekarno, and much of the Pemuda, or Young Indonesians wanted a strong unitary state, no strings attached to the Netherlands. It wasn't a new concept, and it surely wasn't the product of Japanese propaganda. It's just that the high rank that Soekarno held under Japanese occupation ensured that he would be able to tour the country, spreading his ideology. So during the three years of Japanese occupation, the stance that the Indonesian Nationalist movement took became an uncooperative one.

Once it was clear that cooperation was impossible, war raged on. As the war continued, the idealized minds of van Mook and Widjojoatmodjo became more and more dependent on the firepower of the military, and the money of wealthy Dutchmen who had interests on the colonies. More and more, these parties had a say on matters of the Indies, parties that really didn't want the Indies to become independent. When the Dutch did manage to impose a federal state over Indonesia, one with a really awesome name, it was obvious that the borders separating states were one designed to weaken Indonesia. A classic case of Dutch divide et impera.

/end OTL wall of text

So what will happen to Indonesia afterwards? Let's go for the best case scenario, shall we? The sunshine lollipops and only four million deaths case. Soekarno dies, say out of the Malaria he suffered during proclamation. So chaos starts much earlier, and ends much earlier. The older, more cooperative Indonesian nationalists throw their lot towards van Mook's. Socialists, older Islamists, the Dutch and possibly the British and the Americans vs Young Islamists vs Tan Malaka's communists (Soviets hate them, Indonesians loved them) vs Musso's communists (Soviets hate them, not much local support though). It's pretty clear who would win. Indonesia becames a federal state that is a dominion under the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Although they would be hanging in the balance of a very fragile peace. If there is any.

First of all, the Minangkabau of West Sumatra and the Christian Minahasans will be disproportionately powerful in this government. They were far more educated than the rest of the country. The military hierarchy will comprise mostly of Christians. The decentralized nature of the government might ease the tension, but to say that there won't be any friction is just naive. Also, ideologies die hard, and the rifts among the Indonesian society will be very hard to mend.

What about the Netherlands in this scenario? Indonesians like to think that they're so poor and the Netherlands is so modern because the Dutch just took all the riches and used the money to build stuff. This is untrue. I'm not being a colonial apologist here. Colonialism in Indonesia sucks for pretty much everybody. Except the rich plantation owners, of course, and the adventurous fresh graduates who seek a fortune working for the colonial government. The average Dutchman who resides in the Netherlands receives no benefit whatsoever from the colonies.

In fact, the Dutch economy was in a very poor state before the war. Industrialization picked up a bit late in the Netherlands, it's especially lacking for a European nation. I would argue that just like how the loss of Belgium pushed the Netherlands into a conquering spree in the Indies, the lost of Indonesia pushed the Netherlands into industrialization. The Dutch miracle didn't happen despite the loss of the colonies, it happened because of it. They didn't have much choice, it's industrialize or starve.

There's a term in economics called The Dutch Disease. It's named after when the Dutch slacked off and slowed down the economic growth because they just happen to find gas reserves. It's so easy to make money just by selling raw materials, why go through the hassle of producing something? Now imagine this with a much larger scale caused by all the resources in Indonesia. Yep, keeping the Indies won't be pretty for the Dutch as well. Especially since they're, you know, devastated by two wars in a row.

So to summarize:
  1. Millions of people will die.
  2. If the Dutch manage to set up a friendly dominion it will be in a very fragile position.
  3. It will seriously hamper Dutch economic recovery even after the war is finished.
 
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Plus the Netherlands won't be involved in European integration, because it was the loss of Indonesia which made them become major backers of that idea...
 
The Dutch could have won, and were fairly determined to hold on, you simply have to make the separatists be more closely associated with communism to ensure the US backs them. In the late 50s and 60s things could become harder to hold onto, though the British may be more inclined to hold onto their East Indies territory as well in this scenario.
 
if the dutch is smart, they should actually immediately execute all independence leaders, that means if one is captured, they will soon dead and did not have time to write defenses, as well as rallying fellow prisoners and correspondence with anti colonial sympathizers in the USA and USSR.

That way they can really take advantage of their military progress while decapitating rebel leaders.

oh wait... Human Rights...

that way, soon after Dutch agreed with UN Charter, they are doomed to lost most of their colonies to independence movements. Seriously, I am Indonesian myself, and from what history tell us, the Dutch conquers Indonesia efficiently before 1920 by both Divide et Impera, followed by ruthless decapitation of anticolonial leaderships. Holding independence toughts not only earned you death, it will earn you your entire extended families and sympathisers death to deny them rallying figures, and the Dutch used to do this systematically after Diponegoran Wars in 1830s, to the last time this systematic (leadership) decapitations last used in Aceh Wars, 1910s.

In an ironic yet fitting sense, Ethical Politics is the one who ultimately bring the end of Dutch colonial rule... Hesitations to quickly deny the rebel leaderships and the fact that they still functions as rallying points even in prisons prove to be their undoing. Guerilla warfare can still run without peaders, but most of the people only want peace, reasonable living, and security... Leaderless guerrila ain't effective in the long run...

And still the very same Indonesian government fails to completely learn it too... If only they move fast enough to... (a certain now independent nation), as Suharto himself done in the other places with separatist movements (you know...)

PS : I'm not condoning ruthless and brutal subjungation tactics, but this just a detached analysis about history of Indonesia

So basically for The Netherlands to cement their control over Indonesia, they'd have to pull a Belgium? Man, that's grim. :eek:

Umm... no.

It's a very common way thing for us Indonesians to say that the Dutch were too soft on us, and I don't blame them. But we often only look at our point of view, the Indonesian point of view. The thing is, the Dutch didn't start educating Indonesians out of charity. Sure, some Dutch people, such as he author Douwes Dekker, were sympathetic to the sufferings of Indonesians. But we should also see the Ethical Policy from a realpolitik point of view.

First off, the Dutch military was extremely weak in the first half of the 20th century. This can be seen in how the Japanese managed to beat back the Dutch very easily. The Royal Dutch East Indies Army, or KNIL, was pretty much a mercenary army. The bulk of the army were Muslim Javanese soldiers whose loyalty was towards their very low pay. They were under-trained, partly because of Dutch suspicions on raising a competent army that might rise up against them. You might ask, why not ship more troops from the Netherlands who are trustworthy enough to do all the dirty work? Well, it's because it was illegal according to Dutch law to deploy Dutch people from Europe in the colonies. If they can't even fight, how would they have the power to commit atrocities and expect to get away with it? Bear in mind that by 1939 the Indonesian population was about 67 million people.

Second of all, it is important to understand Dutch foreign relations at the time. The Dutch were absolutely paranoid of losing the Indies. German writers didn't hide their desire of colonies. Japan was expanding and was able to beat Russia in a war. Even the United States managed to sweep in and take the Philippines. At least in the minds of the Dutch, everyone was waiting for the perfect excuse to take the Indies from them.

The Dutch could not fight a war against outside forces, it can barely even handle the people they subjugated. The only way for them to survive was to play the nice guy. They wanted to build an image where it seemed that having Dutch overlords were beneficial for the local populace. To some extent, this worked. The Sarekat Islam and Budi Utomo national movements saw that it Dutch overlordship was in their best interest as a change in oppressor meant a whole new language that they have to learn and the awakening movement had to be restart from scratch. It also gave no excuse for any of the major powers to come in.

So yeah, the Ethical Policy might be the root of Indonesian Nationalism, but it was not the downfall of the Dutch Colonial Empire. The Dutch Colonial Empire was already dying by that time, and the Ethical Policy managed to postpone Dutch power in the Indies.
 

SinghKing

Banned
This is ASB. The Dutch dont have the resources to win a war vs 70M nation in a 1945 PoD. In OTL, the dutch did try military option but could not hold the rural areas. In turn, they lost the cities as well eventually, most famous of it when Suharto took Yogyakarta from the Dutch.

Besides that, both US and USSR supported Indonesia.

Even without US and USSR's support, all these armed Indonesians are Japanese trained and armed which the Indonesians lacked in pre-WW2. You also had British Indian Army defectors as well as Japanese volunteers joining Indonesian cause.

The Indonesians were determined to win the war and skilled enough in western modern warfare to expel the Dutch, had more resources than Dutch by 1945

In which case, WI the USA (and NATO) supported the Dutch, with the Indonesians openly declaring their allegiance to communism in response?
 
Umm... no.

It's a very common way thing for us Indonesians to say that the Dutch were too soft on us, and I don't blame them. But we often only look at our point of view, the Indonesian point of view. The thing is, the Dutch didn't start educating Indonesians out of charity. Sure, some Dutch people, such as he author Douwes Dekker, were sympathetic to the sufferings of Indonesians. But we should also see the Ethical Policy from a realpolitik point of view.

First off, the Dutch military was extremely weak in the first half of the 20th century. This can be seen in how the Japanese managed to beat back the Dutch very easily. The Royal Dutch East Indies Army, or KNIL, was pretty much a mercenary army. The bulk of the army were Muslim Javanese soldiers whose loyalty was towards their very low pay. They were under-trained, partly because of Dutch suspicions on raising a competent army that might rise up against them. You might ask, why not ship more troops from the Netherlands who are trustworthy enough to do all the dirty work? Well, it's because it was illegal according to Dutch law to deploy Dutch people from Europe in the colonies. If they can't even fight, how would they have the power to commit atrocities and expect to get away with it? Bear in mind that by 1939 the Indonesian population was about 67 million people.

Second of all, it is important to understand Dutch foreign relations at the time. The Dutch were absolutely paranoid of losing the Indies. German writers didn't hide their desire of colonies. Japan was expanding and was able to beat Russia in a war. Even the United States managed to sweep in and take the Philippines. At least in the minds of the Dutch, everyone was waiting for the perfect excuse to take the Indies from them.

The Dutch could not fight a war against outside forces, it can barely even handle the people they subjugated. The only way for them to survive was to play the nice guy. They wanted to build an image where it seemed that having Dutch overlords were beneficial for the local populace. To some extent, this worked. The Sarekat Islam and Budi Utomo national movements saw that it Dutch overlordship was in their best interest as a change in oppressor meant a whole new language that they have to learn and the awakening movement had to be restart from scratch. It also gave no excuse for any of the major powers to come in.

So yeah, the Ethical Policy might be the root of Indonesian Nationalism, but it was not the downfall of the Dutch Colonial Empire. The Dutch Colonial Empire was already dying by that time, and the Ethical Policy managed to postpone Dutch power in the Indies.

Thanks for your response, cool to see the perspective of an Indonesian as a Dutchman.
 
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