Vinland common knowledge in Europe

So around the year 1000, the Norse go about exploring Vinland. They may have only stayed in the vicinity of L'Anse aux Meadows, or they may have sailed as far south as Martha's Vineyard or even modern day New York, depending on how you interpret the words "dagmal" and "eykt".

These voyages and details thereof are pretty well known in Iceland (hence the sagas); they are reasonably well known in Denmark, as demonstrated by this account, written about 1075 by Adam of Bremen, a German geographer and historian, as told to him by King Sveyn II of Denmark:

He also told me that many in this part of the Ocean have discovered an island called Vinland because there are grapevines growing wild which produces the best of wines. From trustworthy Danes rather than from fantastic tales, I also have heard that there is an abundance of cereal which is self-sown. Beyond this island, he (King Sven of Denmark) says, are no more inhabitable islands in the Ocean. Everything farther out is covered by immense masses of ice and perennial fog. Martianus tells of this:’ One day of sailing beyond Thule the sea is solid.’ This the widely travelled King Harold of Norway found to be true. With his ships he recently investigated the extent of the northern Ocean but finally had to turn back when the extreme limit of the world disappeared in fog before his eyes. He barely escaped the gaping ravine of the abyss.

Our good historian however became confused between Helluland and Halagland, the northernmost part of medieval Norway, where the "midnight sun" is visible. He also spelled Vinland in Latin the same as Wendland, the Polish province closest to Denmark.

Adam of Bremen became the source of the Geographica Universalis commpiled at Malmesbury Abbey in England (which placed Vinland east of Norway). Geographica Universalis was then in turn used as a source for the Polychronicon by Ranulf Higden - this put it west of Denmark but failed to explain the distance, with the island marked in its map as being east of Iceland, close to Scandinavia.

Furthermore

The Icelandic Erik Gnupsson, who was appointed as bishop of Greenland by the Pope, "went to seek Vinland" in 1121. He disappeares from the records after this.

68 years later, Jón Árnason (nicknamed Smyrill) became bishop of Greenland. He went on to meet the frickin Pope in 1202–1203.

The fact that in 1347, a ship arrived in Iceland, after being blown off course on its way home from Markland to Greenland with a load of timber kinda proves that the Greenlanders had continued to use Markland as a source of timber over several centuries and that people continued to travel there on occasion.

Now, let's combine these points:

Either Erik Gnupsson, Jón Árnason or some of the other bishops that came between them successfully travels to Vinland. With Erik Gnupsson, we have the added benefit that he would have had much better knowledge of the first voyages of Leif Errikson, being that they had taken place only around 2-3 generations before. Hell, some of the elders he may have come in contact with may have even met men who initially took part, or at least their children.

So, the good bishop travels to Rome and shakes hands with the Pope (or kisses his ring, whatever). However, instead of that being the end of the story, our bishop Erik is also used as a primary source by some scholar, either in Rome or somewhere along the way, for information about the lands in the north-west. Gnupsson tells him about the voyages, about how he also went there personally, and gives an as good account as possible. The scholar’s work is a critical success, and western Europe takes the information as fact.

Some 50-60 years later, the then King of Denmark/Norway orders an expedition to Vinland, possibly as a result of correspondence with the Pope or whatever. Properly mapping out the lands, converting natives, finding cities to trade with (or plunder) could all be taken into account. Mainly, it would be a prestige project. Since the Greenlanders still have knowledge of the area (as demonstrated by the ship blown off-course), the chances of the royal expedition succeeding aren’t that small.

So, a bunch of ships sets sail from Norway, they stop over in Iceland, requisitioning what they need (even more ships if necessary), sail on to Greenland, do their thing there, and then sets off for Vinland.

It’s not unreasonable to assume they could make it as far south as Florida if they wanted to. Once they’re done, they head back. They bring with them a couple of captives and maybe some items and plants they may have traded for, and present these to their King. The King then writes to the Pope, maybe even sorta claims overlordship over the new lands, apologizes for the fact that the natives are too primitive to be converted, and even sends him one of these as a gift.

How does this influence European perceptions of the west, as well as the future age of exploration, if the commonly accepted view of the Atlantic is this (but without the blue gaps):

640px-Norse-world.png
 
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Well, the idea that a fourth continent existed somewhere wasn't unknown in Middle-Ages. It has its detractors, St. Augustine critically, but it never really shut down the whole idea of a temperata incognita while it remained in the intellectual and visionnary spheres.

So, once the idea accepted that Vinland wouldn't be part of Europe (that's going to be hard or at least taking time : Greenland was considered as part of Europe itself in later maps, and Vinland would probably be known as such in a first time), Africa or Asia; you won't have something that world-shattering intellectually.

Instead or parallel to a Terra Australis, you'd end up with a Terra Occidentalis. The OT maps would probably salvagable, Europa forming the T branch.

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The changes would be more para-theological.
It could interestingly restart discussions about antipodeans, south of Africa. With much talks about : well, giving there is people in the Western Land, there is maybe people living in uttermost South, and giving that we all descend from Adam (the discussions about how to rely Native American to Europeans are going to be fun), maybe it's possible to go there as well.

All of the previous points here would be taking an awful lot of time : as I pointed at first, Vinland is very very likely to be considered as part of Europe, and cartographers/scholars would hook on traditional explanations and considerations up to being proven wrong repetitivly. Don't expect any change before the XIVth century at best.

But of course, this knowledge would be probably a boost for the late XIVth and XVth maritime expeditions.

Giving the relative disinterest on Vinland, and the lack of exploration motives, though, I'm far less convinced that the expedition would be able to go as far as Florida would it be only because "meh, not interesting" and joining up with Vinland, putting an allegoric flag (critically giving the lack of permanent settlement) there and claiming it for Danemark (a bit as Portugal may have done with some North Atlantic coast in the XVth century IOTL) would be probably as far you could have.

So...no big changes before the late XIVth to me.
 
It would probably be forgotten. I saw some convincing evidence lately that the Vikings had explored a lot more of NA than previously believed. Yet, no Scandinavian King ever laid claim to the area, nor was it commonly remembered.
 
In order to prevent Vinland being forgotten again, you'd have to have the danish/Norwegian expedition discover something that warrants future expeditions. Either:
1) they find natives who are willing to convert so the Church mounts further expeditions to promote missionary activity
2) they discover the grand banks finishing grounds at a time when demand for fish is high. The Norwegians are actually the least likely to want to exploit the grand banks as they have rush fishing grounds of their own, but if one of the sailors was British or French or Portuguese, that could lead to exploitation of the fishing grounds by one of those western European nations. Likely this wouldn't result in much different from otl other than the awareness of transatlantic fishing geounds by sailors.
3) tobacco. Tobacco-producing natives could be found along the northeastern Atlantic coast and in the st. Lawrence valley. The expedition might bring a load of tobacco back to Europe where it fetches a high price due it its unique "medicinal" properties. Someone realizes that the tobacco trade could make them rich and finances further expeditions to import more tobacco. Eventually, someone will figure out how to grow it in Europe, and the price will drop, but until then tobacco could be one of the few commodities pricey enough for it to be worth importing via Greenland and Iceland. Maybe the cultivation of tobacco in Europe could be delayed further by having the first attempts made in Denmark which may be too far north for tobacco to grow well (I actuallu have no idea of the range of tobacco)
 
Maybe the cultivation of tobacco in Europe could be delayed further by having the first attempts made in Denmark which may be too far north for tobacco to grow well (I actuallu have no idea of the range of tobacco)

If they grab a remotely frost-resistant genus (which would be what they had in the north), Denmark should be warm enough to grow tobacco, robably even doing the minor ice age. By doing a bit of google-surfing, I've found a rough guide-line of 120 frost-free days, and as Denmark is much warmer than its latitude would suggest (Golf-stream pumping relatively warm water into north sea) they should be able to pull it off, even if not being able to gain anywhere near the same output as say Iberian planters would. Denmark has a weather roughly equal to the one in New England, while being roughly in line with southernmost Alaska
 

Driftless

Donor
If they grab a remotely frost-resistant genus (which would be what they had in the north), Denmark should be warm enough to grow tobacco, robably even doing the minor ice age. By doing a bit of google-surfing, I've found a rough guide-line of 120 frost-free days, and as Denmark is much warmer than its latitude would suggest (Golf-stream pumping relatively warm water into north sea) they should be able to pull it off, even if not being able to gain anywhere near the same output as say Iberian planters would. Denmark has a weather roughly equal to the one in New England, while being roughly in line with southernmost Alaska

On a different thread, we discussed the agricultural range of tobacco in the US. Connecticut ( a southern New England state) was a large tobacco producer into the 1960's.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=322937&highlight=tobacco+connecticut
 
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fascinating.

Any thoughts on where future expeditions might head to next ? With 'knowledge' that the way east towards asia is blocked by a rough, inhospitable landscape, where nothing but grass, trees and grapewines grow, might we see delayed discoveries of NA, and consequently of the Maya, Aztec and Inca cultures, while all the focus is in the south ?

It would probably be forgotten.

In order to prevent Vinland being forgotten again, you'd have to have the danish/Norwegian expedition discover something that warrants future expeditions.

Being reasonably accurately included in a widely-circulated and referenced manuscript such as the Polychronicon would pretty much ensure it is not forgotten IMO - no need for strange cold-resistant tobacco plants or continued expeditions (however much of a boon they may prove to the Greenlander economy).

I saw some convincing evidence lately that the Vikings had explored a lot more of NA than previously believed.

Care to share ?
 
Any thoughts on where future expeditions might head to next ?
Hard to say. It all depends on who lead these expeditions and when. I'd think (as I posted above) that the Scandinavian expeditions in XIIIth century would be extremly limited, geographically speaking, critically with the climatic changes. The Iceland/Greenland/Vineland way would certainly grow more impraticable.

Other "expeditions" may probably be fishering expeditions from Scotland, England, Ireland, Brittany, Gascony, Basque Country, Cantabria, Asturias, Galicia, Portugal (in short the Atlantic arch) that with a more proper knowledge of this area may be more organised and managed by the relevant power. Think Bacalao-scale

Eventually, these could lead in the late XIVth/early XVth to a more proper knowledge of the area and its possibilities. Lack of obvious ressource and wealth would be an issue to further development, but you could count on a quicker exploration of North America from this base as soon Mesoamerica is known.

With 'knowledge' that the way east towards asia is blocked by a rough, inhospitable landscape, where nothing but grass, trees and grapewines grow, might we see delayed discoveries of NA, and consequently of the Maya, Aztec and Inca cultures, while all the focus is in the south ?
First allow me to correct a detail about grapevines. "Wine" there is most probably a wine made of berries, rather than (so far unknown) grapevines.

That said.

Giving the Atlantic streams, the knowledge of a land being present there, the overall possibility of finding a passage to Asia trough possible southern gaps (and using Western lands as a relay towards Cathay : even if damned long, you won't be spared the miscalculations issued from bad translations to Arabic measures to Europeans ones), the need of expanding plantations (of sugar by exemple)...
You'd probably still have expeditions in Mesoamerica or at least northern Southern America.

How and when would happen contact with Mesoamerican and Western Southern American natives is still heavily dependent of the European situation, but I'd think (while not really knowledgable about them, and therefore their impact on European exploration; someone more well-versed on this subject should have to back or contradict this) that following the Caribbean trade road would eventually led to Yucatan or Tabasco's coast.

I don't see formal discoveries of these coast being delayed further than early XVIth; and rumors about it should appear quite soon after presence in Carribeans.
 
Maybe the cultivation of tobacco in Europe could be delayed further by having the first attempts made in Denmark which may be too far north for tobacco to grow well (I actuallu have no idea of the range of tobacco)

Tobacco was grown in Denmark during the German occupation and some still grow their own. Quality wasn't something to talk about.
 
To be fair, knowledge of "vinland" never was forgotten in northern europe. Even when the Greenlanders departed for wherabouts unknown, supply of Narwhale and Walrus ivory never faltered (these were harvested in the Greenlandic sea/Helluland), and probably even farther west.

It was more of a "there's a cold, northern island(s) out there with hostile locals and some rich resources out there" kinda attitude. The size/scope of the land was what was arguably "forgotten".

That being said, it really was bad luck and christianity that "doomed" the idea of Norse North America. Had Christianization been slowed down in Iceland/Eastern Settlement Greenland for even fifty or a hundred years, things might have been different. As it was, Western Settlement Greenland never seemingly fully christianized. Their christianity seems to have been a thin veneer, but that's a whole different argument.
 
How it the quality of Tobacco from lets say New England? Maybe quality could be motivation to keep importing it from Vinland and to start plantations.
Native North American tobacco was awful.

John Rolfe (IIRC) found (probably stole) some seed of the Caribbean plant (Nicotiana tabacum) from the Spanish and planted it in Virginia, possibly crossing it with the local plant (Nicotiana rustica) and created the great Southern US tobacco industry.

Naturally occurring 'rustica' is fine for 'medicinal/ceremonal' purposes, but you're never going to get it to catch on in Europe as a product.
 
(the discussions about how to rely Native American to Europeans are going to be fun)

Interestingly enough the Native Americans probably have a better go of it in this TL. They still have the disease, but European efforts are more focused on conversion and less on conquest.
 
The Cod on the Grand Banks were a huge draw when discovered & would be more attractive than the unknown benefits of Tobacco.

More attractive yes, but likely not cost-effective to import via Greenland and Iceland. Once technology reaches the point where direct travel from Vinland to Europe is reasonably safe, then Cod fishing will be worthwhile, but in the 13th and 14th centuries the most feasible route to Vinland is likely still via Iceland and Greenland.

The reason I suggest tobacco was because, if it becomes as "trendy" in Europe as it was in OTL's 16th century, it would have a very high value per shipload. Even if sending 10 ships would only result in one shipload of tobacco returning that shipload of tobacco could end up being worth more than the 9 lost ships. It still likely wouldn't have a value close that that of gold, but it's value per shipload would be closer to that of sugar or spices that that of fish. Obviously fish is more plentify, but I think (I say think here, because I haven't really done any research, I'm just repeating assertions others have made elsewhere) you need 15th century nautical technology before it becomes worthwhile.

But to be honest, getting tobacco to catch on in Europe is highly unlikely from a single expedition. Possible, but highly unlikely.
 
How does this influence European perceptions of the west, as well as the future age of exploration, if the commonly accepted view of the Atlantic is this (but without the blue gaps)...

No one is going to try to reach the Indies by sailing west. "Vinland" is in the way, and also confirms the scale of the Earth, which means it's too far.

Or, someone will try to reach the Indies by way of "Vinland" as a stopover point. Probably Iberians.
 
In order to prevent Vinland being forgotten again, you'd have to have the danish/Norwegian expedition discover something that warrants future expeditions. Either:
1) they find natives who are willing to convert so the Church mounts further expeditions to promote missionary activity
2) they discover the grand banks finishing grounds at a time when demand for fish is high. The Norwegians are actually the least likely to want to exploit the grand banks as they have rush fishing grounds of their own, but if one of the sailors was British or French or Portuguese, that could lead to exploitation of the fishing grounds by one of those western European nations. Likely this wouldn't result in much different from otl other than the awareness of transatlantic fishing geounds by sailors.
3) tobacco. Tobacco-producing natives could be found along the northeastern Atlantic coast and in the st. Lawrence valley. The expedition might bring a load of tobacco back to Europe where it fetches a high price due it its unique "medicinal" properties. Someone realizes that the tobacco trade could make them rich and finances further expeditions to import more tobacco. Eventually, someone will figure out how to grow it in Europe, and the price will drop, but until then tobacco could be one of the few commodities pricey enough for it to be worth importing via Greenland and Iceland. Maybe the cultivation of tobacco in Europe could be delayed further by having the first attempts made in Denmark which may be too far north for tobacco to grow well (I actuallu have no idea of the range of tobacco)

Three being the most likely. Tobacco was almost absurdly profitable when first discovered by Europeans. Once native tribes made them aware of it the price they could fetch for it was very high in Europe. Even today there is big money in tobacco. Cigarette companies aren't poor.
 

Driftless

Donor
No one is going to try to reach the Indies by sailing west. "Vinland" is in the way, and also confirms the scale of the Earth, which means it's too far.

Or, someone will try to reach the Indies by way of "Vinland" as a stopover point. Probably Iberians.

Along this line, wasn't there still a fair amount of debate about the size and shape of the earth? Many still held the notion the earth was essentially flat? Those who did understand that the earth was basically spherical, might argue the dimensions, and thereby the length of voyages. Eratosthenes & Ptolemy made mathematical calculations of the earth's circumference that had a fairly wide variance and both theories were known in some circles (small pun intended..:rolleyes:) before and during the age of exploration.
 
Excellent points made about tobacco. As an aside, an expedition bringing back tobacco might well bring back other plant samples, notably the Three Sisters (corn, beans and squash), as well. If these crops are successfully established in Europe 400 years or so earlier than in OTL, what would the possible consequences be? I could see a significant population increase due to increased food availability and diversity. I don't think that knowledge of where such significant additions to the European diet came from is likely to be completely forgotten.
 
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