DBWI : Japan didn't turn Catholic after Sengoku Jidai?

Yuelang · May 4, 2015

Obviously I'm talking about what if Dom Felipe Oda, or formerly known as Nobunaga Oda, didn't succeeded to unite Japan under Catholicism? Maybe Mitsuhide Akechi succeeded at his gamble to kill him, or someone else?

What about the Emperor too? as we know it, after Dom Felipe of Oda clan de facto unite Japan under his boot, the Emperor convert to Catholicism and baptized, formally renouncing his claim as descendant of the sun god or Arahitogami, end up as figurehead with practically no power. Will not converting into Catholicism means the Japanese Emperors could retain their ridiculous claim until 19th century and beyond?

Not to mention the spread of Christianity in East Asia as a whole...

Discuss...

twovultures · May 4, 2015

I don't see why the royal family of Japan would give up their claim to divinity at any point without the Shogun's conversion. Japan still has some practitioners of Shinto, maintaining that angle could give the Emperor more political power if the majority of people observed that religion.

Without a Catholic Japan, I don't see much Christianity in East Asia at all. Obviously we wouldn't have the Republic of Manchuko which is Catholic/Orthodox. And obviously we wouldn't have the Buddhist North Korea/Christian South Korea split and all the nastiness that entails. Really, OTL's split is so unlikely, I don't know why writers on this website keep up the cliche of always splitting the Koreas.

Tyr · May 4, 2015

Japanese SAID the emperor wasn't anything to do with the sun god when dealing with foreigners.
But their actual beliefs?
I think the evidence is pretty good that a lot of native beliefs held on until very recent times.

Also, if you look at an official family tree of King Paul of the British Fed. you will notice that it still mentions him as being descended from Woden

What I wonder is where would Asia be without the Japanese being so tied into the christian world system. It seems inevitable they would continue to develop their naval technology but would they be quite so aggressive?
It seems likely to me that it would be more turned towards defence as the country is put under siege by the Iberians.

twovultures · May 4, 2015

Tyr said:
Also, if you look at an official family tree of King Paul of the British Fed. you will notice that it still mentions him as being descended from Woden

It's not quite as pagan as it seems. Christian missionaries in Norse lands like Scandinavia accepted that the Asatru existed, but believed that they were notable ancestors elevated to the status of gods. This idea was revived in the 18th century by some of the more occult-minded in the Gothic movement. Since they were a major intellectual inspiration for the creation of the British Federation, it's not surprising that their 'reconstructivist' theological interpretations would be worked into the geneology of the royal family.

As a side note, anybody else overjoyed at the recent declaration of gender-equal royal inheritance? I know Princess Alexandrina has a reputation for being a bitch, but her charity work is impressive and she's not an alcohol-addled elephant poacher like her brother.

What I wonder is where would Asia be without the Japanese being so tied into the christian world system. It seems inevitable they would continue to develop their naval technology but would they be quite so aggressive?
It seems likely to me that it would be more turned towards defence as the country is put under siege by the Iberians.

So you're suggesting that they would try and resist Christian encroachment by becoming isolationist? Interesting idea, though I do wonder if they could have pulled it off given that without Oda Japan very likely would never have had a unitary government in the modern era. Loss of the Japanese navy in the 18th century would have changed a lot of history-Hawaii could never have become a Japanese protectorate, for example.

Yuelang · May 4, 2015

If they didn't convert, they must more or less do an even fiercer version of their OTL military efforts because that means they will end up as Prime target against European colonization progress. But yeah, with actively hostile Europeans banging their door, they will sooner or later having to fight for their lives, especially when part of the daimyo are already Catholicized as well.

But yeah, Koreans will be happy (if not end up split again by different colonizers). The Japan held south korea (now considered core part of japan after three centuries) are still sore points with the state of Korea, who held on Northren part of their peninsulla after their independence from Russia.

An Isolationist, non Christian Japan is just asking to be barged in by Royal Navy / French Navy / Russian Navy / Spanish Navy / Later on US Navy.

Speaking of which, will we have those Asian popes in 19th century too? Like Pope John Anakuma or Pope Alexander Yagami?

M. Adolphe Thiers · May 4, 2015

twovultures said:
I don't see why the royal family of Japan would give up their claim to divinity at any point without the Shogun's conversion. Japan still has some practitioners of Shinto, maintaining that angle could give the Emperor more political power if the majority of people observed that religion.

Without a Catholic Japan, I don't see much Christianity in East Asia at all. Obviously we wouldn't have the Republic of Manchuko which is Catholic/Orthodox. And obviously we wouldn't have the Buddhist North Korea/Christian South Korea split and all the nastiness that entails. Really, OTL's split is so unlikely, I don't know why writers on this website keep up the cliche of always splitting the Koreas.

I don't know, China has a fairly resilient Christian population. The Chinese Catholic Church still make up about a quarter of China's population, even with the Emperor's known distaste for them. Of course, Manchuria was a big success in conversion. Maybe China would convert instead of Japan.

I'm not sure we'd see any East Asian popes though, since the Chinese Rites controversy caused problems for the church. It took a long time for the Sinic Rite to be approved by Rome.

CV12Hornet · May 4, 2015

twovultures said:
It's not quite as pagan as it seems. Christian missionaries in Norse lands like Scandinavia accepted that the Asatru existed, but believed that they were notable ancestors elevated to the status of gods. This idea was revived in the 18th century by some of the more occult-minded in the Gothic movement. Since they were a major intellectual inspiration for the creation of the British Federation, it's not surprising that their 'reconstructivist' theological interpretations would be worked into the geneology of the royal family.

As a side note, anybody else overjoyed at the recent declaration of gender-equal royal inheritance? I know Princess Alexandrina has a reputation for being a bitch, but her charity work is impressive and she's not an alcohol-addled elephant poacher like her brother.

So you're suggesting that they would try and resist Christian encroachment by becoming isolationist? Interesting idea, though I do wonder if they could have pulled it off given that without Oda Japan very likely would never have had a unitary government in the modern era. Loss of the Japanese navy in the 18th century would have changed a lot of history-Hawaii could never have become a Japanese protectorate, for example.

Perhaps, then, a point of divergence where Oda never becomes Christian at all. We've still got him uniting Japan under a unitary government (probably), and Christianity is either a fringe movement among the peasantry, championed by a defeated Daimyo and thus pretty discredited, or best case scenario championed by one of Oda's allies and so becomes the second foreign religion to gain a large foothold alongside Buddhism.

Personally, if someone does run with this, I'd say scenario 2 is the most likely.

Kaiphranos · May 4, 2015

Yuelang said:
An Isolationist, non Christian Japan is just asking to be barged in by Royal Navy / French Navy / Russian Navy / Spanish Navy / Later on US Navy.

Will the Unitarian State even arise with a POD in the 16th century? An isolationist Japan is going to have all sorts of effects on global trade routes; there's no guarantee that the Dissenters will migrate to the colonies or rebel like they did...