With a POD earlier than 1900 and later than 1066, have Spain become and stay a world power on the level of France, Germany and the United Kingdom by 1914.
AHC: Great Power Spain
- Thread starter SuperTechmarine
- Start date
Easy.Stop Spain from getting ridiculously obsessed with trying to impose Catholicism everywhere.If the eighty years war can't be prevented,I'd actually cut the whole place loose and let a cadet branch reign as king in the Netherlands.Actually spend the gold they gained from the Americas on infrastructure and industry instead of spending them all on wars.Try and centralize the country(in real life,they missed this step by relying solely on the gold,this bite them hard in the end).Try and actually develop the colonies instead of solely milking them for gold.
Knowing Habsburgs they always ruin everything on end.
Spain just would need someone reformist king on 19th century and so it could remain strong nation. It might still lose most of Americas and colonies in Pacific, but perhaps keeps Cuba and Puerto Rico.
unprincipled peter
Donor
18th century and first half of 19th century are critical. going through the war of succession, then only having one decent king (Carlos III - caveat is that even the decent king made some bad choices: joining the 7 yrs war after France had already lost it, and wasting energy/setting bad precedent in the American Revolution) really set the country back. Carlos IV was bad, then Ferdinand VI was worse. And throw the Nap wars, which might have gone better for Spain with decent leadership.
So, job one is coming up with a better leadership scenario. Maybe have a Gabriel sperm linking up instead of the one which produced CIII's first son, who was mentally handicapped.
Job two is industrialization. I think (not sure) Spain has access to all the minerals/basic materials necessary. Any great power status from 19th century on depends on industrialization.
From what I understand, there may be difficulties, but no innate reason Spain couldn't keep great power status.
So, job one is coming up with a better leadership scenario. Maybe have a Gabriel sperm linking up instead of the one which produced CIII's first son, who was mentally handicapped.
Job two is industrialization. I think (not sure) Spain has access to all the minerals/basic materials necessary. Any great power status from 19th century on depends on industrialization.
From what I understand, there may be difficulties, but no innate reason Spain couldn't keep great power status.
One big obstacle is France, having this bad ass for a neighbor you just can't avoid getting invaded and plundered. Napoleon or not, Spain is weaker in terms of population and economy.
keep the Habsburgs from inheriting Spain? by keeping Miguel da Paz and his mother alive?
it'd certainly keep them focused away from the Holy Roman Empire and its endless wars.
and barring that, keep the Bourbons from the Spanish throne. which will again drag Spain into useless wars.
the rulers of Spain could impose Catholicism as long as they don't inherit any Protestant lands. like what happened with Felipe II and the Burgundian lands.
it'd certainly keep them focused away from the Holy Roman Empire and its endless wars.
and barring that, keep the Bourbons from the Spanish throne. which will again drag Spain into useless wars.
the rulers of Spain could impose Catholicism as long as they don't inherit any Protestant lands. like what happened with Felipe II and the Burgundian lands.
It might seem counter-intuitive, but if Spain had never conquered regions containing abundant gold and silver, it might have actually been better off as it could have been prompted to develop its domestic industry and trade much more than it did. Those shipments of precious metals were easy money that led to inflation and allowed the country's economic development to stagnate.
Assuming the loss of colonies is inevitable, then seeing the Netherlands either go to a cadet Habsburg branch. Or have a very hostile relationship between the church and the Spanish monarch at the time of the reformation resulting in a Church of England situation, or a tolerant monarchy toward religious minorities that lets Spain maintain a united Iberia and save a mint on the 80 Year's War. Assuming this much saved wealth keeps the English weary or even lose a major naval battle, then a lot more land is open to Spanish domination by delaying English settler colonies. Areas such as Australia, the American South, etc. would become viable with delayed English colonization.
Really, there's many scenarios, I just mashed three random ones here to set the stage.
Really, there's many scenarios, I just mashed three random ones here to set the stage.
I think the best solution for a long term great power 'Spain' would be for the Spanish court to be moved to the Americas.
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I'd say this is a bit overstated: having its western bits frequently invaded didn't prevent a united Germany from becoming a Great Power, and before the 19th century it was always easier to invade than Spain. (Aside from the Napoleonic wars, how often was Spain "invaded and plundered?") France can prevent Spain from becoming a European hegemon, but it's unlikely to stop an intelligently run Spain from remaining a major power: France isn't run by diabolical schemers constantly plotting to ruin Spain's day, and Spain isn't a political and geographic soft target like, say, Poland.
I had to think of how much war and conflict was merely civil or regional wars compared to full-on foreign invasion and the Napoleonic Wars and thence Reconquista and thence Arab Invasions were it.
That said, the image of dastardly Frenchmen twirling their mustaches, recognizing their true enemy is not Perfidious Albion but Spain....that's a great one.
Actualy, I would say that during the 16th and most of the 17th century France's main enemy was Spain, while England was more or less an ally. It was the glorious revolution that changed that.That said, the image of dastardly Frenchmen twirling their mustaches, recognizing their true enemy is not Perfidious Albion but Spain....that's a great one.
Perfidious Albion was raiding Spanish treasure fleets in the 16th-early 17th century.
I was talking about Anglo-French anomisity. But you are correct, the reason England and France often were more or less allies was because both were alligned against Spain.
Yeah, but that had more to do with France waking up one morning, taking a look around, and seeing wall-to-wall Habsburgs than a problem with Spain in particular. The Habsburg Inheritance helped make Spain Top Power for a century and a half, but it was in so many ways ridiculously burdensome.
My favorite scenario for Super Spain has always been Miguel da Paz. I mean, you already have Castile and Aragon welded together, and then you get Portugal which has had a head start in exploration and mercantilism.
Also, paradoxically, I find they'll be less zealous religiously if they don't get the Habsburg lands. Yeah, Catholic Monarchs and all that, but with the reformation arguably taking a different route you could see the Spanish get a little more pragmatic.
Also, paradoxically, I find they'll be less zealous religiously if they don't get the Habsburg lands. Yeah, Catholic Monarchs and all that, but with the reformation arguably taking a different route you could see the Spanish get a little more pragmatic.
Well, a Spain confined in Europe to southern Italy and Iberia certainly aren't going to have the problem of ruling over large numbers of people keenly interested in converting to Protestantism, and they'll have a lot less to clash with France over. Might spend more time and money in Turk-fighting and North African ventures, OTOH.
Bruce
Have the New World colonies be treated as actual parts of Spain (e.g. if you're Catholic and swear allegiance to the king, you can have any post in the Empire - whether you're brown, black, white or yellow).
Spain is too dry and the land's not good enough to support a population the size of France's.
But if Argentina - Mexico were included, they could be a second rank power like China today. Probably still behind the US and possibly whatever Russia turns into.
Spain is too dry and the land's not good enough to support a population the size of France's.
But if Argentina - Mexico were included, they could be a second rank power like China today. Probably still behind the US and possibly whatever Russia turns into.