Groener successfully bans the SS & SA

fasquardon · Dec 17, 2014

So I read this while browsing a certain infamous site:

the wikipedia biography of Wilhelm Groener said:
On 8 October 1931 he also became acting Interior Minister in the government of Heinrich Brüning, and favoured the banning of the Nazi storm troopers (SA). However, as Interior Minister he was asked to outlaw the SA, whilst his goal as Defence Minister was to integrate it into a national, non-partisan paramilitary force. In April 1932, under pressure from several German states, Groener outlawed SA and SS. Kurt von Schleicher, his subordinate at the Reichswehrministerium, however wanted to set up a cooperation with these two groups. To that end von Schleicher worked on Hindenburg, trying to have Groener dismissed. He also allied himself with the NSDAP. After a rhetorical defeat in the Reichstag, Groener resigned on 13 May as Defence Minister, urged by von Schleicher who told Groener that he had lost the trust of the Reichswehr. When the government of Brüning fell on 30 May, Groener also lost his position as Innenminister and left politics for good.

So let's say Groener manages to outmaneuver von Schleicher and Hindenburg supports Groener instead of von Schleicher (maybe Groener's son is born a few months later, meaning Hindenburg never decides to hate Groener for - in his view - getting his wife pregnant before their marriage). The Brüning government still falls, but Groener retains his position in the new von Papen government and the ban stays in place until at least when von Papen falls.

Does the banning of the SS and SA have much impact on the rise of the Nazis? Do the Nazis try to resist the disbanding of their armed wings? And if the Nazis still gain power on a similar time scale, does the loss of the SS and the SA before they gain power change the movement much?

fasquardon

jmc247 · Dec 17, 2014

fasquardon said:
So I read this while browsing a certain infamous site:

So let's say Groener manages to outmaneuver von Schleicher and Hindenburg supports Groener instead of von Schleicher (maybe Groener's son is born a few months later, meaning Hindenburg never decides to hate Groener for - in his view - getting his wife pregnant before their marriage). The Brüning government still falls, but Groener retains his position in the new von Papen government and the ban stays in place until at least when von Papen falls.

Does the banning of the SS and SA have much impact on the rise of the Nazis? Do the Nazis try to resist the disbanding of their armed wings? And if the Nazis still gain power on a similar time scale, does the loss of the SS and the SA before they gain power change the movement much?

fasquardon

By 1932 it's too late and the Heer is far too small to do it against the numbers they are up against and the police would be on the side of the Nazis unless Hitler goes along with it.

Realpolitik · Dec 17, 2014

Hitler also is not the type of guy who is going to let a law passed by some Prussian civil servant stop him. Least of all in 1932.

fasquardon · Dec 17, 2014

There were around 300,000 SA in the period and a handful of SS. If Hitler declares a revolution, many of them are likely to not even turn up. But even assuming they did, I would place my bets on the Reichswehr. They may be outnumbered 3-to-1 but they are far better trained, far better organized and far better equipped.

If Hitler wins this, I bet he wins with politics.

fasquardon

Magnum · Dec 18, 2014

fasquardon said:
There were around 300,000 SA in the period and a handful of SS. If Hitler declares a revolution, many of them are likely to not even turn up. But even assuming they did, I would place my bets on the Reichswehr. They may be outnumbered 3-to-1 but they are far better trained, far better organized and far better equipped.

If Hitler wins this, I bet he wins with politics.

fasquardon

Plus, the government has all the legitimacy in the world AND can also call upon the trade unions

fasquardon · Dec 18, 2014

But would Hitler (or Roehm) even choose to fight at this stage? I could see Roehm fighting a romantic last stand if Hitler abandons him, but if Hitler says to him "pretend to go along with this, shift your best men into new `Nazi Sports clubs` or other false flag continuations, in a year I'll be in power and you and the SA will be raised up again" would Roehm disobey?

I do wonder if this might obviate the need for the Night of the Long Knives. There is some evidence that Hitler's mental stability and drug use got significantly worse after purging his best friend, so it may make for a saner and more capable Hitler in the mid to late parts of the alt *WW2.

Though it is an open question how much that would really matter in the long run.

fasquardon

Redhand · Dec 18, 2014

Then they would be shuffled into other Nazi groups, and continue their work through technicalities.

It would be like a game of whack a mole. The SA had the organizational backbone at this point to survive attempts at elimination from the government, and they didn't need to be much more than a group of thugs who promoted Nazism.

clem attlee · Dec 19, 2014

Yes, I agree about the Reichswehr. Besides there were Communist toughs to pitch in against the SA too. There is no inevitability to Hitler winning.

fasquardon said:
There were around 300,000 SA in the period and a handful of SS. If Hitler declares a revolution, many of them are likely to not even turn up. But even assuming they did, I would place my bets on the Reichswehr. They may be outnumbered 3-to-1 but they are far better trained, far better organized and far better equipped.

If Hitler wins this, I bet he wins with politics.

fasquardon

Carl Schwamberger · Dec 21, 2014

fasquardon said:
There were around 300,000 SA in the period and a handful of SS. If Hitler declares a revolution, many of them are likely to not even turn up. But even assuming they did, I would place my bets on the Reichswehr. They may be outnumbered 3-to-1 but they are far better trained, far better organized and far better equipped.

If Hitler wins this, I bet he wins with politics.

fasquardon

There were other para military organizations like the Stalhelm, which could be invited to assist in suppresing the SA. The Reichswehr had a hidden reserve disguised as police auxillaries or reservists, and I'm thinking most police will remain loyal to the government.

It is true the SA had a lot of war veterans, who were on the far side of age 40 and out of shape. It also included a lot of urban toughs, borderline criminals, and low grade psychopaths. They were great for beating up folks at the polling stations, or pushing Jews off the sidewalk, but quite a few would have cut off around the corner when real trouble showed up.

The core group of Germany were the middle class voters, supplemented by the wealthy business men. Both feared disorder and radical government, & neither would retain any support for the nazis or SA were they to resist government edicts with violence.