Consequences of Heinkel 177 working on time

IOTL the Germans ending up building about 1200 strategic bombers, but due to technical issues they weren't ready for combat operations until 1944 and then only played a minor role in the war due to fuel shortages and lack of training/spare parts due to the success of the Combined Bomber Offensive:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

What if it was ready for action in 1942 when it entered production IOTL? Let's say they don't add the dive bombing requirement and are able to get the troublesome DB606 engines to work, so by the beginning of 1942 they enter production and by Autumn 1942 there is a small Wing ready for action. Where do they do and what do they do? I'm assuming they probably are first sent to work against the Soviets, as there are many industrial/strategic targets that would be crucial in the East and that was the principle theater in 1942. By 1943-44 they could operate against all sorts of targets in both the East and West, but by late 1943-early 1944 Operation Eisenhammer would be the necessary one.

Germany of course is going to lose once the US gets involved, so that still happens, but what is the result of the USSR being even more damaged by German bombing in WW2, particularly in the wake of a successful Eisenhammer and badly disrupts Soviet production in late 1943? Could it mean that the resulting gap in production delays their 1944 offensives, leaving them further to the East? How does Yalta play out if the Soviets are still not into Poland or East Prussia? What if the war ends with the Wallies in Poland and liberating all of the Czech Republic and the Soviets still east of the Carpathians? I think given the US leadership they would still allow the Soviets an occupation zone in Germany, but could the circumstances be significantly different if the Soviets aren't the ones to take Berlin?

They would be used in revenge attacks on UK, where most would be lost.

I imagine that "He177s that work" would be used initially in two main theatres: (1) Long range strategic bombing of industrial targets in the Soviet Union, and (2) To replace the Fw200 as a much more effective maritime reconnaissance bomber. As Soviet air defenses improve (which they would), I'd see them more and more used in the maritime recon role. I honestly don't think 1200 strategic bombers will make much overall difference on the land campaigns on the Eastern Front.

Once the Allies invade France and the aircraft can no longer be based in western France, I suppose they might be used in a "little blitz" against Britain.

The best use Germany might actually have for 1200 high-performance multi-engine planes like the He177 is as a modern military troop and supply transport. This use might actually be more valuable on the Eastern front than as a bomber. Also, it would sure help in the retreat from North Africa. He177s would not be the slow lumbering sitting ducks that Me323s and Ju52s were. But turning a perfectly good bomber into a transport is not something the Nazis would probably consider. Also, with He177s being decent bombers, Germany might mass produce more Ju90s and Ju290s as transports - a better use for these planes.

Given how poorly defended and concentrated the Soviet electrical power stations were, they would be seriously vulnerable to a significant attack of say two wings of He177s, which had a capacity for 6x 1 ton semi-armor piercing bombs for just this sort of mission within range of the bases available in 1943-44. Plus follow that up with some Do-217/Ju-188 or just 88s dropping 1 ton cluster bombs with incendiaries on the sites afterward to intensify the damage and the Moscow-Upper Volga area is out of power for their factories with no replacements left in the USSR. It would take the US over 12 months to start replacing that huge and highly valuable equipment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eisenhammer

Shortage of fuel, bombers and issues with the floating mines would delay it. Still it would make an interesting PoD if they managed to pull even half the attacks off.

Do the Germans have the capability and the range with these bombers to mine some of the waterways of the USSR in 1943/44?

A significant portion of fuel from Baku was transported by barges and mining the rivers will have a cumulative effect since the Soviets will have to use their precious trains and rolling stock to pick up the slack and this hinders their movement and resupply at the front.
As for countermeasures the Soviets were very bad with electronics and I am not sure they can afford the manpower and technical expertise for radar covering all possible target sites. Furthermore, I am unsure if the Western Allies would supply the Soviets adequately with countermeasures (radar, high altitude interceptors, more rolling stock, specialized electronic equipment et cetera).

This might add a few weeks to the war. Depending on the use of these bombers the Western Allies might be on the Elbe while the Soviets are still in Poland.

zoomar said:

But turning a perfectly good bomber into a transport is not something the Nazis would probably consider.

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How so? The evidence points to the opposite, as Goering, the RLM, and the head of the Luftwaffe were actually against the use of strategic bombers.

SpicyJuan said:

How so? The evidence points to the opposite, as Goering, the RLM, and the head of the Luftwaffe were actually against the use of strategic bombers.

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No in fact they weren't:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

By early August 1942 Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring became angry about the apparent slowness with which the He 177A's powerplant problems were being dealt with. On August 13 he responded as follows to a report by Oberst Edgar Petersen (the Kommandeur der Erprobungstellen, or "commander" of the German military aviation test facility network in WW II) about the He 177A's powerplant troubles, particularly containing remarks about the problems caused by the compromised design of the DB 606 powerplants' accommodation in the He 177A's engine nacelles, and resultant poor maintenance access: "Why has this silly engine suddenly turned up, which is so idiotically welded together? They told me then, there would be two engines connected behind each other, and suddenly there appears this misbegotten monster of welded-together engines one cannot get at!"[22]

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Goering, et al didn't want the Ural Bomber, but they were behind the Bomber A project and were pissed it wasn't ready on time; Hitler too kept asking about it.

Deimos said:

Do the Germans have the capability and the range with these bombers to mine some of the waterways of the USSR in 1943/44?

A significant portion of fuel from Baku was transported by barges and mining the rivers will have a cumulative effect since the Soviets will have to use their precious trains and rolling stock to pick up the slack and this hinders their movement and resupply at the front.
As for countermeasures the Soviets were very bad with electronics and I am not sure they can afford the manpower and technical expertise for radar covering all possible target sites. Furthermore, I am unsure if the Western Allies would supply the Soviets adequately with countermeasures (radar, high altitude interceptors, more rolling stock, specialized electronic equipment et cetera).

This might add a few weeks to the war. Depending on the use of these bombers the Western Allies might be on the Elbe while the Soviets are still in Poland.

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They did and this bomber could hold up to four mines IIRC for a combat radius of 1200 miles.

article on (unrelated) ME-261 give a clear picture of the engine arrangement that SHOULD have been used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_261

my thinking is that if the HE-177 had performed well there would have been more than 1,000 built, as the plan was to phase out the HE-111 (at minimum)

the ideas about use as transport, as maritime bomber, on Eastern Front all might dovetail neatly if they were used against Soviet fleets on Baltic and Black Seas. eliminate Soviet naval threat and German supply problems eased.

What would have happened if the Air Ministry had given approval to Ernst Heinkel's request to build V3 and V4 with 4 Jumo 211s, which wouldn't require the complex maingear set-up, and with plain old drooping ailerons instead of the high-zoot split Fowler gear? What if they accidentally built the wing stronger, earlier?

I think I would agree with the eastern priorities being the more effective for Germany, but the leadership did have a wish to drop bombs over England.
IIRC, the He-177 of OTL had a remarkably low casualty rate and probably not too few of these were errors that the POD would correct.
Basically it was designed to perform a shallow dive reaching 600 km/h from high altitude and maintain this speed all the way over enemy territory. It probably could have been used over England (like a mosquito with more payload), but would this have any effect?

What length of airfield does 177 require for operation?

Maybe after the 6th Army is encircled in Stalingrad, if all the 177 fleet is committed to their aerial resupply, they could hold out for much longer than IOTL.

Just Leo said:

What would have happened if the Air Ministry had given approval to Ernst Heinkel's request to build V3 and V4 with 4 Jumo 211s, which wouldn't require the complex maingear set-up, and with plain old drooping ailerons instead of the high-zoot split Fowler gear? What if they accidentally built the wing stronger, earlier?

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As far as I studied it we would have something between the He-177 and He-274. Awesome plane.

British had developed high altitude fighters, ostensibly to hunt for reconissance plane, but would work well enough against bombers as well.

The propositions for strategic bombing in the East were either shot down in favor of tactical support (proposed attacks on railway network before Kursk) or procrastinated on untill they became irrelevant (Mistel).

Resuply of Stalingrad via He-177 would have negible impact with most becoming victims of conditions on Pitomnik.

wiking said:

Given how poorly defended and concentrated the Soviet electrical power stations were, they would be seriously vulnerable to a significant attack of say two wings of He177s, which had a capacity for 6x 1 ton semi-armor piercing bombs for just this sort of mission within range of the bases available in 1943-44. Plus follow that up with some Do-217/Ju-188 or just 88s dropping 1 ton cluster bombs with incendiaries on the sites afterward to intensify the damage and the Moscow-Upper Volga area is out of power for their factories with no replacements left in the USSR. It would take the US over 12 months to start replacing that huge and highly valuable equipment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eisenhammer

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Wow, this is really something!!!!

Germany knocking out 75% of Russia's electrical power supply in late '42 really screws over the Soviets. Certainly their follow-up offensives after Op. Citadelle will be much, much more reduced in scope AT A MINIMUM.

German troops might still be in western Ukraine when the first A-bomb drops over Nuremberg.

The attack's not coming before 1943, since that's when the plan was conceived, and they were still fixing problems with the mines, but an attack in say later 1943 would do serious damage, maybe even enough that the Germans could draw off some reasonable forces to reinforce France, which might make D-Day that bit tougher.

my scenario for 1942 - 1943 would be heavy bombers used against Soviet navy (and naval bases) in USSR, eliminate the naval threat and their supply problems would have been greatly reduced.

late 1942 was turning point in bombing of Malta, can imagine heavy bombers diverted there as compromise since Axis invasion was cancelled.

Magnum said:

Wow, this is really something!!!!

Germany knocking out 75% of Russia's electrical power supply in late '42 really screws over the Soviets. Certainly their follow-up offensives after Op. Citadelle will be much, much more reduced in scope AT A MINIMUM.

German troops might still be in western Ukraine when the first A-bomb drops over Nuremberg.

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There are a couple of books with more info if you want:
http://www.amazon.com/German-Air-Wa...6411&sr=8-2&keywords=richard+muller+luftwaffe
http://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffes-Wa...6411&sr=8-1&keywords=richard+muller+luftwaffe

MattII said:

The attack's not coming before 1943, since that's when the plan was conceived, and they were still fixing problems with the mines, but an attack in say later 1943 would do serious damage, maybe even enough that the Germans could draw off some reasonable forces to reinforce France, which might make D-Day that bit tougher.

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Having read some of the planning docs they didn't need the mines to make them work; they could use the Fritz-X bomb to knock out the power stations, the mines were just another way to do it.

PsihoKekec said:

British had developed high altitude fighters, ostensibly to hunt for reconissance plane, but would work well enough against bombers as well.

The propositions for strategic bombing in the East were either shot down in favor of tactical support (proposed attacks on railway network before Kursk) or procrastinated on untill they became irrelevant (Mistel).

Resuply of Stalingrad via He-177 would have negible impact with most becoming victims of conditions on Pitomnik.

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Yeah a daylight run would be disaster in the west for the He177, even in a dive. At night they were much more survivable, but diving badly reduced accuracy making it only useful for area targets like London. The He177 did have the range for these attacks in 1943 and had the bonus of being unsuitable for tactical missions, so is unlikely to be diverted due to its singular mission profile, unlike the He111, Do217, or Ju88. So if they are available some time around Kursk, but before the Battle of Smolensk they would make their run and there would be well over 200 of them produced and in service; the only issue would be how many are lost near Stalingrad, over the Atlantic, and in the Mediterranean. Ideally they would be held back for strategic operations in the East. The Ju290 probably doesn't get built ITTL though, which saves enough material for 120 of the HE177s, while the Fw200 probably exits production in 1941, meaning less than half built IOTL will be built ITTL. Surprisingly the He177 was actually lighter than the Fw200 late model.

thaddeus said:

my scenario for 1942 - 1943 would be heavy bombers used against Soviet navy (and naval bases) in USSR, eliminate the naval threat and their supply problems would have been greatly reduced.

late 1942 was turning point in bombing of Malta, can imagine heavy bombers diverted there as compromise since Axis invasion was cancelled.

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Why Soviet naval bases? That's pretty much Leningrad and a couple of places in the Black Sea by 1942. And Murmansk.

I reckon more strategic bombers wouldn't have made much difference to anything by then. If Operation Fall Blau still happens, then Stalingrad still happens, and that being the case Germany basically has to either reach some sort of armistice with the Soviets in early 1943, or lose the war.

I'd have used many them as maritime bombers to supplement the submarines. You dont need maximum loads for attacking ships & the balance capacity could be used for more fuel.