The House of Palaiologos, Against the Tide: An Eastern Roman Timeline

after lurking and reading TLs in the pre 1900 forum for several months, I decided it was time I did some contributing. My TL will focus on the possibility of a Byzantine/Eastern Roman survival and moderate revival with a POD set inside the reign of Constantine XI Palaiologos. I know that this sounds incredibly implausable to anyone with even a running knowledge of Byzantine or Turkish history, but I ask that you read my scenario before making that judgement final.

Please do not be shy about commenting, especially if something important has escaped my notice. I am open to suggestions, as I am more or less writing this as I go. Now without further delay, here's my first TL.

The House of Palaiologos, Against the Tide: An Eastern Roman Timeline

Chapter One: Constantine XI

“For our God is a just God. The Romans crucified his son, so he crucified the sons of the Romans.”-George Psellos, Byzantine Church unionist and Cardinal in Rome.

Regardless of who you ask, there are few who would deny that Eastern Roman Empire’s darkest hour was in the mid-15th century A.D., with the Ottomans controlling every imperial province save the Morea, Trebizond (an independent successor state since 1204), and Constantinople itself. The empire was little more (indeed, often nothing more) than an Ottoman vassal, with the emperors themselves often having less influence than most Ottoman court officials. Amidst this chaos, the once mighty Orthodox Church was being ripped apart by those factions who proposed submission to the Church of Rome, and those who believed that such a union was unacceptable. It was into this situation that Constantine XI Palaiologos was cast during his coronation on January 6th, 1449. The state of the empire was so bad that he only became emperor after acquiring the support of the Ottoman Sultan Murad II over his rebellious older brother Demetrios, who was then placed under house arrest in his home in Constantinople(1).

Despite the absolutely horrible situation of the Eastern Roman Empire, Constantine XI was strong in his resolution to defend his domain from Ottoman encroachment by whatever means necessary. Any and all surplus money was spent on defensive structures, especially the reparation of the Theodosian walls, which would be considered the premier construction project of Constantine’s reign. He also tried hard to forge alliances, and under the looming threat of the Ottomans, was able to claim the support of Venice, Genoa, Trebizond, Georgia, Hungary, and the Papacy. He also worked to curry favor with the Ottomans, a goal in which he was reasonably successful, as he managed to garner favorable relations with both Sultan Murad II and the Grand Vizier Candarli Halil Pasha(2).

It is worth noting that Constantine XI had a very pro-western foreign policy, as he viewed the Islamic Ottomans as the ultimate threat to the empire’s survival, and it was because of this that he was willing to reaffirm the union between the eastern and western churches in exchange for the promise of Papal aid and support. This move essentially meant that Constantine would be less able to depend upon his own people, many of whom were staunchly anti-unionist, but given that the city of Constantinople had shrunken to the point where fielding an army of over 5000 native citizens would be completely impossible, it is reasonable that he turned his gaze to the hope of charity from the large and populous militaries of Italy and Western Europe. By reuniting the churches, he hoped in the short run to make his cause palatable to the staunchly Catholic Kings of the west, and in the long run to hopefully inspire a renewal of large scale crusading against the Ottoman infidel.

In 1451, Murad II died, and was succeeded by his 19 year old son Mehmed II. Unlike Murad, who was a peaceful older man and on reasonable terms with Constantine XI, Mehmed was a young man with dreams of glory. It had long been a dream of the Ottoman Sultans to conquer Constantinople, and for the most part the only reason that they had not yet achieved that goal was the peaceful nature of Murad II and the hassle of assaulting the Theodosian walls. Besides that, there was little reason for leaving Constantinople and the Morea unconquered, and Mehmed had little desire to see the current situation continue during his reign.

It soon became obvious that Mehmet would besiege Constantinople, and Constantine XI began furiously calling for aid from every ally that would hear him. More importantly, he sent his brother Demetrios to the Ottoman court at Adrianople, on a special diplomatic mission. After failing to usurp the throne from Constantine, Demetrios’ relationship with his brother was strained, and this was made all the worse by the fact that Demetrios was pro Ottoman while Constantine was pro-west. However, it was Demetrios’ blatant, pro-Ottoman stance that made him the perfect man to send to the Ottoman court to attempt to broker peace, or at least to stall Mehmed’s advance.

Although Demetrios’ presence at the Ottoman court did buy the Romans a considerable amount of time to prepare, as well as keeping Demetrios far from the court of Constantinople and Morea where he would be free to sow dissent against Constantine, it was only part of the reason for sending an envoy to Adrianople. The second purpose was to establish contact with the Grand Vizier Candarli Halil Pasha, with whom Constantine was still on good terms. It was fairly well known that the Grand Vizier was incredibly powerful in the Ottoman Empire, but more importantly, it had also become apparent that Mehmed was not on good terms with Grand Vizier Halil. While Demetrios made the pretense of diplomatic negotiation believable, Constantine used trustworthy nobles within the envoy to attempt to convince the Grand Vizier to lend him aid and overthrow Mehmed(3).

By 1552 Mehmed had grown tired of waiting, and even more tired of Demetrios’ presence at his court. Mehmed officially declared an end to the truce on August 2nd, and ultimately beheaded Demetrios, thereafter sending the head to Constantinople as a message. He then set about building fortresses on either side of the Bosporus in order to prevent aid coming to the Romans by sea. By this point Constantine had managed to gather somewhere between ten and fifteen thousand men (5,000 Byzantines, 5000 Italians, and an undetermined number of mostly Turkish mercenaries). He had also managed to gather a large amount of supplies and money, mostly loans from his Italian and Georgian allies, and had used a good portion of the money to hire the Hungarian gunsmith Orbon, and to buy materials for Orbon to make small defensive cannons with. It is estimated that by the end of Constantine’s war drives, the empire owed so much money to it’s allies, that they couldn’t have paid it off even if they had sold every soul left in the empire as slaves for the maximum market value.

Although less pronounced, preparations for the siege of Constantinople did strain the Ottoman state as well. It was obvious that any force hoping to storm the Theodosian walls (and Mehmed did want to storm the walls) would need to be utterly massive. Then there was the matter of breaking into the city, which would require a truly massive artillery train, and the matter of crossing the Bosporus strait with such a force. Accordingly Mehmed raised an army of 100,000 soldiers, supported by an artillery train with over 100 cannons, and a navy of at least 300 ships (although less than 10% were warships, as the bulk were to be used as troop transports). All of this military spending did little to help Mehmed’s relationship with his Grand Vizier, and by March of 1453 things took a turn for the worse when Grand Vizier Halil formally voiced some of his concerns during a meeting between the Sultan Mehmed and the generals who would be accompanying him during the siege. The Grand Vizier was not a fan of Mehmed’s vain plans of expansionism, but even more alarming for him was the state of the treasury. In light of this, it is not surprising that when the army finally mobilized in mid-May, Grand Vizier Halil was left at his estate outside Bursa.

The final crack in the Sultan’s relationship with the Grand Vizier came shortly after the former had left the Capital. The Sultan had apparently paid one of the viziers’ servants to attempt a poisoning. The servant in question was inexperienced with poisons, and only managed to induce a violent bout of vomiting from the vizier. When the vizier recovered, he was immediately suspicious of the circumstances of his sudden illness. His kitchen servants were interrogated, and the man responsible was quickly identified. He confessed to everything, including Mehmed’s involvement, in hope of receiving mercy. He found none, and was executed on June 2nd.


Now truly worried about his position in the event of Mehmed’s victorious return, Candarli Halil Pasha quickly began to search for allies amongst the Ottoman elites. He found many, as Mehmed had been decidedly careless of stepping on the toes of his inferiors, while the Grand Vizier was well liked and quite politically intelligent. His efforts were quite successful, and with most of Mehmed’s political allies by his side outside Constantinople, there was little opposition in Asia. The only problem with the Grand Vizier’s plan was the European provinces, in which his influence was far less, but he ultimately dismissed them as nonessential, being that most of the Ottoman Empire’s population was on his side of the Bosporus, and that the loyalty of the European territories, still largely Christian and culturally Greek, was somewhat dubious.

The official declaration of rebellion came on August 13th, when soldiers loyal to Candarli Halil Pasha burned Sultan Mehmed’s great fleet at anchor. The attack was completely unexpected, and stuck as they were in the narrow Bosporus, the Ottoman fleet burned in its entirety. With a few isolated exceptions, all of Anatolia was now loyal to Candarli Halil Pasha, who moved his capital to Bursa on August 20th. He officially declared the new sultan to be Orhan the second, a weak willed sixteen year old boy living inside Constantinople who was allegedly a son of Mehmed's deceased older brother Ahmed, although weather or not he was actually of royal blood is still uncertain. These events horrified and enraged Mehmed, who reportedly ordered the execution of several prisoners during his rage. Worse still than the rebellion, was the fact that, without a fleet, Mehmed had no means of returning to Anatolia with his massive army.

Although the burning of the fleet meant that Grand Vizier Halil too was deprived of a navy, he made up for it by using his access to the Ottoman treasury to hire Italian Galleys to patrol the Bosporus. In contrast Sultan Mehmed had next to no access to funds, and was dealing with nobles who feared that their estates and families were being pillaged or destroyed while they were away. As rumors spread that Mehmed would not be able to pay them for their services, soldiers began to desert from the army. For Mehmed it was an absolute worst case scenario, and he could see only one solution; capture Constantinople.

Mehmed realized that the only way that he could get his forces back into Asia without a fleet would be to take control of Constantinople, and there, within the walls, ferry his troops across the Bosporus. His forces were already encamped outside Constantinople, and he had a large artillery train (with at least 50 cannons), but without a fleet and the possibility of reinforcements an assault on the Theodosian walls seemed like an incredibly risky undertaking, even if there were only 15,000 men defending them.


Hoping to gain entrance to the city without risking a pitched battle, Mehmed sent a delegation into the city under armistice, and offered to cease hostilities and to pay a large unspecified sum of money to Constantine. His emissaries even alluded to the possibility of returning Athens or Thessalonica to Greek control if Constantine cooperated. Constantine did not believe for a minute that allowing Mehmed access to the city would benefit his cause, rather he feared that once he let the Turks into the city they would never leave. He continued to stall the negotiations with Mehmed, while in secret he sent out an envoy of his own (by boat, since the Bosporus was no longer blockaded on account of Halil’s defection) to make contact with the newly crowned Sultan Halil I. His envoys asked for the Grand Vizier's counsel on whether or not they should let Mehmed pass, bringing a letter of greeting with Mehmed’s personal seal as proof that negotiations were in fact going on.

The Grand Vizier was in no position to face Sultan Mehmed’s massive army right now, as he had been counting on the continued Constantinopolitan resistance to buy him time to raise an army of his own. He therefore turned to a resource which he had in considerably greater abundance, gold, to diffuse the situation. He offered to pay off Constantine’s massive debt to the Italians (which at the time he likely did not know the true extent of) in full, in exchange for Constantine’s continued resistance to Mehmed. Constantine agreed, provided that the service of 5,000 Turkish mercenaries be provided to him for the duration of the siege, as he stressed that his resistance could only continue so long unsupported.

Thus on September 7th, year 1453 an alliance was concluded between the Byzantines and Candarli’s Turkish state. When Mehmed’s emissaries returned to him with this dismal news, he ordered the immediate resumption of the siege, and within hours the steady pounding of bombardment could be heard in the Bosporus. Despite this the Theodosian walls, restored as they were provided staunch resistance, and it was nearly a week before the damage to them became noticeable.

Not until September 25th did a sizable breach in the wall appear. Mehmed was quick to capitalize, and within minutes he had nearly half his force running pell-mell into the breach. They were under intense missile fire as they ran this hellish the gauntlet, but the worst did not come until they had crossed into the city. There, some 30 feet behind the walls, were three cannons. Situated inside the foundational ruins of what must once have been a large and well off household, they represented 20% of the new guns built by Orbon for the defense of the city. Behind them Emperor Constantine himself and his guards waited, until the first of the enemy passed through the breach, and the emperor gave the order to fire the first gun. Immediately a deadly scatter shot erupted from the gun, devastating the first wave of Turkish attackers. As the breach continued to fill with new soldiers, the emperor ordered the gunners to fire the second and third guns, before personally leading the charge against the Turks.

Their moral devastated by the surprise scattershot, the Turks nonetheless pressed on into the breach. In the narrow breach the Turkish numbers could not be used to full effect, and more often than not the Italian mercenaries who formed the bulk of those present at the breach were better armed and armored. In addition to this, the missile fire from the walls continued undiminished, and on several occasions large cauldrons of boiling water and oil were poured out over the Ottomans. By nightfall the breach was filled in with the bodies of 15,000 Turks and 2,400 defenders, with many more wounded, especially by the scattershot and boiling water. Exhausted, the Turks, having gained no foothold worth defending, withdrew for the night.

Mehmed was shocked to learn how many of his men had fallen. Worse still, the Byzantines had piled up the Turkish corpses outside the walls, in a sort of grizzly barricade, which in addition to demoralizing Mehmed’s troops would significantly impede any attempt to push back into the breach. With roughly a quarter of his forces dead or incapacitated, and the better part of his artillery’s munitions spent, Mehmed decided to abandon the siege. With no plausible means of returning to the Asia, Mehmed decided to dig in in Europe. He and his soldiers prepared to spend the winter months in Adrianople, and to continue their wars again in the spring. He also sent word to the people of Thessalonica to begin building a new fleet, although he was sure little of it would be ready by springtime.

As soon as it became clear that Mehmed’s forces had gone, there was revelry in the streets of Constantinople. For one glorious week there were no Greeks or Latins, no Eastern or Western Churches, only Romans in Constantinople. Joyous people flooded the great churches to thank God for deliverance, while there was dancing and drinking in every tavern and market place in the city. On the lips of every soldier and citizen was one glorious phrase, “Glory to God, long live Constantinople!”



(1) The first of several small PODs, in reality Demetrios was allowed to go to the Morea, where he essentially only caused trouble for Constantine's much more loyal younger brother, Thomas.
(2) The second noteworthy POD, Candarli Halil Pasha was an incredibly wealthy and powerful Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire, who is well known to have hated Mehmed. IOTL, he is killed by Mehmed immediately after his conquest of Constantinople, but TTL he gets wise in time to avoid such an outcome.
(3) The TTL influence of Constantine XI's secret envoy is more or less negligible, but it represents a departure from OTL, in which Constantine overplayed his hand by threatening Mehmed with the release of an Ottoman pretender to the throne, thus giving Mehmed the moral and political justification that allowed him to gather his forces so quickly OTL. By sending a diplomatic envoy, the empire buys itself vital time, making the trecherous Demetrios something of an unsung hero of sorts.
 
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Thanks for the support, any thoughts on the plot so far?

I'll try to get another update on the board later today, although it might be delayed depending on OTL happenings.

Also, I have a question for the board. Do you think that it would be plausible for the Byzantines to reunite with the Catholic church permenantly? By this point the two most powerful men in the empire (Constantine and Thomas) are unionists, and I think that there's a chance that the war weary populace will be willing to fall into line if Constantine pushed a little, especially after he and the italian mercenaries performed so well in the battle with Mehmed's army. Of course, the nobility were mostly anti union, but the Patriarch was a unionist, so I could see the people being fine with reunification but the nobles quietly plotting to rebuild the schism. Your thoughts?
 
Very nice so far. One tweak I'd make, in order to make it more plausible that Konstantinos is able to get such aid, is have Mehmed be less diplomatic upon his accession. At the beginning, the Christian powers didn't treat him seriously (oh, he's just an inexperienced boy, what harm can he be?), a sentiment Mehmed encouraged. Perhaps have a Venetian tick him off and an angry Mehmed beheads him on the spot or something. I don't think it's strictly necessary, but a mini-POD here would make it a lot easier for Konstantinos' diplomacy.

As for the schism, I consider it very, very, very unlikely. An union initiated on the Byzantine end will never be accepted by the Byzantine people. By this point in OTL, Emperors had been trying since the 1270s and all failed miserably. What would be needed is for the West to actually get off its ass and do something. A mass crusade that actually mauls the Turks (say a great crusade, supported by the Byzantines, that destroys Rumelia while Halil looks on).

The basic problem with union negotiations is that the Byzantines wanted military aid first, union later. The Catholics wanted union first, military aid later. Given the very limp support by Catholicism in OTL, the Byzantines never had much incentive to recreate union. A real crusade that works, not a Nicopolis, would do a lot to change Byzantine people's minds.

But an excellent start to what I hope will be an interesting, fun, and long-lived TL. :)
 
This seems interesting and (just about) within the realms of the possible. The Turks were nearly at breaking point IOTL 1453, after all, so the Greeks (personally I consider the Roman Empire to have ended in 1204 and everything else to be Greek-speaking successor states) could have held out- but I still struggle to see how a proper restoration is really possible at this stage.

Now for my complaints. These are short, but I have a few of them.

- A noted rebel being sent to negotiate on the Emperor's behalf at the court of an aggressive Sultan seems very unlikely to me. I'd replace Demetrios with some other noble here.
- The Ottoman capital in 1453 was at Adrianople-Edirne, not Prousa-Bursa.
- The idea of a Grand Vizier declaring himself Sultan seems unlikely- is there much precedent for this? More likely, I would think, that a pretender from the House of Osman would be proclaimed as a puppet Vizier.
- The Ottomans didn't hold Athens at the time of the 1453 siege, so offering to give it back to the Emperor seems a rather odd thing to do.

As for Church Union, I think it's certain that it will be attempted, but I think it's very unlikely to be accepted by the populace. The Catholics are most definitely in a position of strength by this point, and any deal will (rightly) be seen as being imposed upon the Orthodox. The average citizen of the Empire won't like this at all, and priests who defy the Union will be much more popular than those who go along with submitting to heretical Western barbarians.
 
This seems interesting and (just about) within the realms of the possible. The Turks were nearly at breaking point IOTL 1453, after all, so the Greeks (personally I consider the Roman Empire to have ended in 1204 and everything else to be Greek-speaking successor states) could have held out- but I still struggle to see how a proper restoration is really possible at this stage.

Now for my complaints. These are short, but I have a few of them.

- A noted rebel being sent to negotiate on the Emperor's behalf at the court of an aggressive Sultan seems very unlikely to me. I'd replace Demetrios with some other noble here.
- The Ottoman capital in 1453 was at Adrianople-Edirne, not Prousa-Bursa.
- The idea of a Grand Vizier declaring himself Sultan seems unlikely- is there much precedent for this? More likely, I would think, that a pretender from the House of Osman would be proclaimed as a puppet Vizier.
- The Ottomans didn't hold Athens at the time of the 1453 siege, so offering to give it back to the Emperor seems a rather odd thing to do.

As for Church Union, I think it's certain that it will be attempted, but I think it's very unlikely to be accepted by the populace. The Catholics are most definitely in a position of strength by this point, and any deal will (rightly) be seen as being imposed upon the Orthodox. The average citizen of the Empire won't like this at all, and priests who defy the Union will be much more popular than those who go along with submitting to heretical Western barbarians.
What choice do they have? Reuniting the church might be the only thing the will garanty any help against the Turk because when the Vizir will see how huge the debt is he is not going to be happy with it.
 
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What choice do they have? Reuniting the church might be the only thing the will garanty any help against the Turk because when the Vizir will see how huge the debt is he is not going to be happy with it.

And it's also a sure way to lose the Emperor the support of the aristocracy and the common people. "Better the Turkish Turban than the Papal Tiara" wasn't just idle chatter- antipathy towards the Latins really was quite ferocious.
 
And it's also a sure way to lose the Emperor the support of the aristocracy and the common people. "Better the Turkish Turban than the Papal Tiara" wasn't just idle chatter- antipathy towards the Latins really was quite ferocious.
Then they'll get what they wish. Who am I to argue?:p
 
Thanks for the support, any thoughts on the plot so far?

I'll try to get another update on the board later today, although it might be delayed depending on OTL happenings.

I would say that you should not try to get too much done in so little time, take this at a nice steady pace and take the time to look over and research your TL as well as plot out ideas and such, an update a day can get really hard to maintain and you can run out of ideas fast.
 
Basileus444, Thanks. As for Mehmed's diplomacy, there actually is a POD that makes him seem more threatening, which is his murder of Demetrios. Even though Constantine is better off without the trecherous Demetrios, he can still say that Mehmed has killed his brother in negotiations, making the war seem that much more real.

And with the union of Churches, I was actually thinking that with a considerably weaker Turkish state, there is a chance that Vlad Dracula will land a decisive Victory over Mehmed (since Vlad comes to power in 1456, less than 10 years after the first POD, I don't think that needs to be butterflied away), and get the Papal funding for his crusade that was stolen by some corrupt noble on the way to him OTL. Imagine the most legendarily brutal lord in Christendom with the money and manpower to dominate the Balkans :eek::cool:. That might scare the Byzantines, but it might also show them that the Papacy is serious about driving the Turks out of europe.

Basileus Giorgios, admittedly I think I've chosen one of the hardest things to make plausible, but thats what makes it such an enjoyable challenge.

As for your concerns,
1. OTL Demetrios was made CO Despot of Morea (alongside Thomas) following his rebellion, so being made an emissary is actually more cautious than what was done with him in reality. Plus, his only real purpose in the Ottoman court is to stall Mehmed, and with Constantine less than a day's ride away I'd say that Demetrios was still on a pretty short leash.
2. You're absolutely right, so I've made all the necessairy changes to reflect that in the original text, although Candarli's capital is still Bursa, since the Candarli's were based around Nicea.
3. I agree with you here, but the only pretender I could find any mention of in the 1450s was Prince Orhan, who was a teenage pretender in Constantine XI's custody. In theory he would make a good candidate, but I can't find any information on him or what made his claim valid. I could possibly make up a bastard son of one of Mehmed's older (dead by this point, unfortunately) half brothers, but I'm not sure I want to add a rondom person who I'm not sure existed before the POD. Any advice here would be appreciated, especially information on Prince Orhan.
4. By this point the Duchy of Athens still existed, but only because the Ottomans allowed it to, so while in theory the Ottomans should not be offering it to Constantine, in practice it's theirs to do what they please with. Besides that, Mehmed's diplomats may have alluded to the possibility of giving away Athens, but Mehmed has no intention of giving Constantine anything other than cold steel once there are no Theodosian walls between them.

As for religious unification, I think that, with the Latins having just successfully defended Constantinople on the emperor's behalf, relations might get a little better. After all it's been 180 years since the recovery of Constantinoples from the Latin Empire, and since then the Venetians and Genoese have been on their best (still kinda bad) behavior. I think that the populace might be willing to accept the emperor being Catholic (provided that he is otherwise well liked) provided that they weren't forced to convert themselves. If there continued to be friendly relations with the Papacy, then a slow but steady stream of converts will likely come. I'm also toying with the idea of a Gasmuli Pope (inseveral decades if applied), which would help things considerably if applied (and with the large amount of Greek Cardinals is at least remotely plausible).

Xgentis, no worries, the hundred years war is already over (no butterflies reached during the five years since the POD), so France can count on national unity in the future. Besides, I'm a moderate Francophile (being 10% French in real life), so count on a stronger France than is present in IE or AoM.

Evilprodigy, don't worry, I don't intend to post every day, only when I feel I have something worth posting. Hopefully that will be enough to satify the endless appetites of this site's Byzantophiles.
 
Basileus Giorgios, admittedly I think I've chosen one of the hardest things to make plausible, but thats what makes it such an enjoyable challenge.

As for your concerns,
1. OTL Demetrios was made CO Despot of Morea (alongside Thomas) following his rebellion, so being made an emissary is actually more cautious than what was done with him in reality. Plus, his only real purpose in the Ottoman court is to stall Mehmed, and with Constantine less than a day's ride away I'd say that Demetrios was still on a pretty short leash.
2. You're absolutely right, so I've made all the necessairy changes to reflect that in the original text, although Candarli's capital is still Bursa, since the Candarli's were based around Nicea.
3. I agree with you here, but the only pretender I could find any mention of in the 1450s was Prince Orhan, who was a teenage pretender in Constantine XI's custody. In theory he would make a good candidate, but I can't find any information on him or what made his claim valid. I could possibly make up a bastard son of one of Mehmed's older (dead by this point, unfortunately) half brothers, but I'm not sure I want to add a rondom person who I'm not sure existed before the POD. Any advice here would be appreciated, especially information on Prince Orhan.
4. By this point the Duchy of Athens still existed, but only because the Ottomans allowed it to, so while in theory the Ottomans should not be offering it to Constantine, in practice it's theirs to do what they please with. Besides that, Mehmed's diplomats may have alluded to the possibility of giving away Athens, but Mehmed has no intention of giving Constantine anything other than cold steel once there are no Theodosian walls between them.

As for religious unification, I think that, with the Latins having just successfully defended Constantinople on the emperor's behalf, relations might get a little better. After all it's been 180 years since the recovery of Constantinoples from the Latin Empire, and since then the Venetians and Genoese have been on their best (still kinda bad) behavior. I think that the populace might be willing to accept the emperor being Catholic (provided that he is otherwise well liked) provided that they weren't forced to convert themselves. If there continued to be friendly relations with the Papacy, then a slow but steady stream of converts will likely come. I'm also toying with the idea of a Gasmuli Pope (inseveral decades if applied), which would help things considerably if applied (and with the large amount of Greek Cardinals is at least remotely plausible).

1. I still think delivering Demetrios into enemy hands is asking for trouble- what's to stop the Ottomans using him as a pretender? It's not outright ASB, but I think it's very unlikely, especially given the Greeks were well aware that the Turks had been able to establish themselves in the first place largely through backing rebel claimants to the throne of Constantinople.

2. Good good!

3. I think I remember somewhere that Mehmet had an infant baby brother IOTL, who was swiftly killed- possibly called Little Ahmet? Why not have Candarli Halil Pasha come up with a child, claim him to be Little Ahmet, and claim to restoring a legitimate member of the House of Osman to the throne? Again, I may be getting confused here, but I think there was some doubt over Mehmet's suitability IOTL, because of his Christian mother and his Byzantinophile outlook.

4. Fair enough. :)

__________

Good point about the Latins defending Constantinople thawing relations somewhat- but then, the Greeks had been allied to various Latin powers for centuries now, and the Latins gained no real benefit IOTL from taking part in the defence of the city in earlier Ottoman sieges. I hope you're being sarcastic about Venice and Genoa- the Greeks had been at war with one or the other on and off many times after 1261. I really, really don't think there's any way the populace will accept an Emperor who "surrenders" Orthodoxy. That, of course, does have the benefit of making your work more challenging to write, and fun to read! :)
 
Basileus Giorgios, about Demetrios, I still consider making him an emissary less dangerous than making him a despot, and besides that the envoy he is a part of also contains men loyal to Constantine, so Demetrios has no real freedom in his conversations with the Sultan. Also, Mehmed doesn't want to put a pretender on the throne. Mehmed wants a glorious conquest by assault like he got OTL, so he has no interest in Demetrios potential use as a pretender.

As for finding a pretender, I'll look into this Ahmet guy. If all else fails, I can just have Candarli bring in a seven or eight year old and say he's Mehmed's nephew, so expect to see Candarli as a Grand Vizier again shortly.

And as for the churches, firstly, yes I was joking about the Italians. They/we are always in it for the money and the women, to hell with the consequences:cool:! But in all seriousness, relations are still better than they were in 1261. I think that this siege will have a considerably greater effect on relations between Greeks and Latins because of the battle. In most of the earlier sieges the Ottomans set up siege lines, then quickly realized that there was some new threat somewhere else, and left. Here, the Greeks and Latins fought shoulder to shoulder against the Turks, with the Emperor himself in their midst. IMO there is no better way to unite two cultures in friendship than to have them shed blood side by side against a common foe, and then to celebrate victory together too.

I also have another question for the board. What type of currency should I be using for the dealings between the Byzantines, Turks, and Italians. I'm tempted to say Florins, but I fear I've been a bit brain addled by too much Medieval 2 Total War (in which the florin is the currency). Any thoughts?
 
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Here's a little update to finish off 1453. Mostly diplomatic in nature, but necessairy to wrap up loose ends and start a few new story arcs.

In the coming weeks Constantinople returned to a level of normality, and negotiations with the Italians and Candarli continued. Upon reading a letter explaining exactly how much money Constantine owed the Italians (the Venetians in particular) it is said that Candarli Halil Pasha was blind for over a day. He immediately began renegotiating with Constantine, hoping to see what could be gained by upholding his end of the bargain. Although he still posed no immediate threat to the city of Constantinople on account of his small army, Candarli recognized that the threat of not paying could in itself be enough to coerce the Emperor into sweetening the deal, since without money to pay off his Italian mercenaries they might well turn against the city’s inhabitants. On November 1st an agreement, known as the Treaty of the Bosporus, was reached. Candarli was to pay 50% of Constantine’s debt, while the other 50% would be given as a loan, to be paid back at 12% interest over a period of 10 years. The Agreement also stipulated that Constantine must rearm the island of Tenedos out of his own pocket, so that the island could be defended from Mehmed’s forces in the likely event of war with Mehmed being resumed. Lastly the treaty officially confirmed a state of mutual alliance between the Ottoman (under Candarli and Orhan II) and Roman empires, with military aid and monetary subsidies to be granted in the event of war with Mehmed. It was a deal that generally satisfied all involved, Candarli because he gained a secure border and reduced his payment to Constantine by over half, Constantine because it bought him time to pay off his remaining debt and the promise of military aid, and the Italians because the money that they had loaned to Constantine would be paid in full (they were beginning to fear that he would be killed or declare bankruptcy).

During the course of the negotiations for the Treaty of the Bosporus, word reached Constantinople from the Despotate of Morea. Apparently, while Constantinople had been besieged, Mehmed had sent a small Turkish army of two to three thousand men to harass and raid the Morea. Thomas, the Despot of Morea, had managed to trap the Turks on a peninsula in the southeastern portion of the Morea, and kill or capture the entire force using a hastily assembled militia force of 4,000. The effect of the victory was increased moral and momentum in the troops and citizenry of the Morea, and Thomas, hoping to build on his victory, quickly crossed over into the Duchy of Athens. There he found the city and countryside virtually undefended, and was able to force the regent, Chiara Zorzi, and her young son Duke Francesco to become his tributaries once again (the duchy had been a tributary from 1444 to 1446). Constantine, who was once again looking for any conceivable source of income to insure that he could keep up his payments to the Candarli’s, was overjoyed to hear this, although when he wrote back, he cautioned Thomas not to waste resources trying to defend Athens from Mehmed, since there would be no chance of holding it in the event of Mehmed turning his gaze southwards. He was also intrigued by the way that Thomas had managed to mobilize the militia in order to capitalize on the Turkish blunder, and vowed to make his own militia a more moveable force in the future.

The last major event for the Byzantines in 1453 was the continued search for a suitable bride for Constantine XI, who was now a widower of nearly fifty, with no sons of his own (although he did indeed have his brother Thomas and his nephew Andreas, Thomas' eldest son). Initially it had been arranged that Constantine should marry a daughter of George VIII of Georgia, but negotiations fell through during the siege of Constantinople, when George, who was in need of strong allies to combat his rebellious nobles, decided that Constantine as an ally could bring little to the table in terms of short term support, and decided to find a match for his daughter closer to home. Now the search for a wife lead him to Trebizond, where it was agreed that Anna, niece of Trebizond Emperor John IV through his younger brother David, would be sent to Constantinople, and once of age would marry Constantine. Despite the massive age difference (just over 40 years), it was a generally happy occasion, as it reaffirmed the bonds between the surviving states of the Byzantine Empire, presented the possibility of a royal heir being born to Constantine, and promised a sizeable dowry from the still financially relevant Trapezuntine Emperors. The young empress to be was greeted with great enthusiasm by the people of Constantinople, especially because she was Orthodox rather than Roman Catholic, and because she was culturally Greek rather than Latin or Slavic.

In the rest of the world, 1453 was a relatively quiet year. The possessions of Mehmed II in Europe were raided by some Albanians, and in Thessalonica there were several instances of Byzantine patriots sabotaging the construction of ships for Mehmed in their harbor. Byzantine patriotism was high on account of the much exaggerated stories of the heroic emperor single handedly defending the breach in the Theodosian walls, and the City of Constantinople had received upwards of 2,000 Greek immigrants from the various Asian and European Ottoman territories. Elsewhere, hostilities finally came to a halt in the 100 years war between France and England, after an English attempt to regain a foothold in Aquitaine was crushed by French soldiers. In Rome, Pope Nicholas V attempted to drum up crusading fervor amongst the lords of Europe with his stories of the victories in Constantinople, the Morea, and Albania. Although for the most part his exhortations were greeted with polite applause and nothing more, there was a considerable push amongst the Spanish nobility for a conquest of Granada. All this aside, by the beginning of 1454 little on the surface had changed since the start of 1453, but tensions below the surface threatened to boil over still, and the latter half of the 15th century would be nothing if not eventful.
 
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I just scanned the thread , not being that big on Greek Empire TLs. I have a question. What happened to Mustafa (Mehmed's oldest son)? He didn't die in OTL until 1474 and he was born at least by 1458 and probably pre-PoD.
 
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And as for the churches, firstly, yes I was joking about the Italians. They/we are always in it for the money and the women, to hell with the consequences:cool:! But in all seriousness, relations are still better than they were in 1261. I think that this siege will have a considerably greater effect on relations between Greeks and Latins because of the battle. In most of the earlier sieges the Ottomans set up siege lines, then quickly realized that there was some new threat somewhere else, and left. Here, the Greeks and Latins fought shoulder to shoulder against the Turks, with the Emperoe himself in their midst. IMO there is no better way to unite two cultures in friendship than to have them shed blood side by side against a common foe, and then to celebrate victory together too.

Yep, there would have been some degree of impact, but I do think you might be guilty of handwaving if you dismiss the problems out of hand. The issue isn't just that Greeks, in general, hate Latins- it's also that, for the average Greek, adopting Latin religious rites is a surefire way to end up in Hell.
 
MNP, at the moment I'm not too worried about Mehmed's heirs, Mehmed is still quite young, and I expect him to be around a while yet. I must caution though, if he was born post 1453 (thus concieved later than 1451), he has most likely been butterflied away, although Mehmed will most likely name his sons the same things he did OTL, since he is still essentially the same person.

Basileus Giorgios, not to worry, there won't be significant Greek converts for awhile yet, at this point it's still similar to OTL, those who recognise the danger the empire is in from the Ottomans are willing to convert on account of pragmatism, but for the common man there is no reason. The main effect of the warming of relations with the Italians following the siege is that Catholics are not considered worse than Muslims anymore, but rather slightly more well liked than Islam. It's a flavor of the moment thing, but it means that the people are willing to tolerate Constantine's pro Catholic policies for as long as the Italians behave themselves, which in turn will continue as long as the cash keeps flowing. So for the union's sake, lets hope that Constantine can keep scraping his yearly payments together while remaining popular with the people.
 
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