WI: the Romans win at Teutoburger Wald

Can and how can the Romans defeat the Germans at the Teutoburg Forest in 9 CE? Could they actually succeed in pushing the Imperial Frontier all the way to the Elbe? Would it help the empire in the long term? Would it change anything all?
 
I don't know could Rome conquer Germania but I doubt that this would help them any. Romans would have even more minorities and behind of borders is still tribes who want come to the empire.

And Romans would begin fight against each other anyway.
 
I don't know could Rome conquer Germania but I doubt that this would help them any.

I don't think they could either, but to my understanding the strategic goal of the campaign at the time was to push the frontier to the Elbe. Germania goes all the way to the Vistula, and I doubt the Romans could ever go that far even if everything goes their way short of ASB.

And Romans would begin fight against each other anyway.

No large-scale civil wars would be due until the Crisis of the 3rd Century IIRC.
 
Romans had already reached the Elbe - Ahenobarbus is credited as the first Roman to step over it. They were also creating towns between Rhone and Elbe, with statues of Augustus already delivered to stand on the forum that had been laid out. Without the significant defeat, this activity would have continued and it is likely that provinces would have been created East of the Rhine - before Teutoberger Wald there was a world conquest vibe to the Roman world view that was swiftly dropped following the defeat.

There's some interesting impacts on people's careers - for example, Tiberius gained a lot of credit from stabilising the situation following Varus' defeat, which helped position him as Augustus' heir.

There's a lot to think on here and I'm away from my sources. I'll try and put more thought in and come back with some potential outcomes and butterflies
 
A few things to keep in mind:

1. The Romans were not in formation and they were spread out over 15-20 km.
2. Arminius received military training when he was in Rome and knew what to expect to some degree in regard to battle formations/tactics.
3. Legio XVII, Legio XVIII, and Legio XIX, the legions with Varus, were in unfamiliar territory. Also, they lacked combat experience, especially against the Germanic tribes.
4. The bad weather in the area was a contributing factor as well.

A couple of things that could help would be if Varus had sent out reconnaissance parties ahead of the main body and if he had kept the legions in formation (not stretched so far out).

Other than that, my familiarity with this period is limited. Any further suggestions as to how the Romans could have a better outcome?
 
I doubt, the roman can win, once Varus walked into Arminus' trap.

But the Battle of Teutoburg Forest could had been avoided by avoiding the Pannonian War, or Varus decides, that it is too late in the year to start a campaign and marches back via the Lippe-Route to his winter-camps. I doubt Arminius is risking to attack them on this route. This would end in an open field battle, he can't win. Perhaps Varus even exposes Arminius as a traitor, tortures and kills him.

This would not prevent battles in the Winter 9 AD, and the romans would loose many units spread all over Germania. But the romans lost units, even complete legions, more than once. This is not comparable with the shock, after loosing 3 complete legions plus auxilia. There was already an "immensum bellum" around 1 AD. Unfortunately we know no details about it. But the romans did not surrender. Without this huge shock, which forced the romans to restart their conquest almost completely, and to rethink their strategy to defend Gallia from scratch, they would not abandon Germania that easily.

This would also not avoid that the germans tribes would revolt in the future. Germania is still far away from pacified. But remember huge parts of Germania did not participate in Arminius War. The South was still safe. The Hermunduri and other southern tribes like the Mattiaci remained loyal. Also the Frisii and the Chauci in the very North did not participate in Arminius coalition. Same with the Langobardi at the Elbe, who were more allied with Marobodus and his Marcommanns. And Marobodus remained a loyal client, too.

With ongoing trouble in a a rather unsecured Germania, emperor Tiberius himself would perhaps see the need to lead the campaigns onsite for decades. Tiberius strategy was fully different to Germanicus' strategy. And he was the way more experienced general. Tiberius mastered divide et impera, with a mix of diplomatic and military actions. He always tried to strengthen the rome-friendly parties in the tribes. Young Germanicus did more bad than good with his brutal attacks. This way the romans lost all support in the german tribes. At the end Germanicus won nothing and lost perhaps more soldiers than Varus. Perhaps the main reason, why Tiberius called his incapable general back to Rome.

In the long run, the advantage of the Elbe border is not, that less germans are rest between Elbe and Vistula, even if less attackers are always a nice thing. But that way more germans become germano-romans. The germans would probably supplement or even replace the illyrians as the main pool for roman legionaries after romanization and we would see an emperor with german roots sooner or later.

I agree that it is highly unlikely, that the romans would conquer all Germania up to the Vistula. The regions east of the Elbe were even more of a nightmare than western Germania. Fortunately also less populated. But perhaps the romans would annex Marcomannia around 50 AD. Until then the Marcomann King Vennius was a vasall of Rome, but he was brought down by his nephews. Or the romans would intervene even earlier, when Marobodus was brought down in 18 AD. If the romans are more engaged in Germania, they would deal differently with Marcomannnia, than they did IRL. This way the border is further shortened, especially after Dacia is conquered.

Another important point is, that with ongoing trouble in Germania, the romans would not invade Britannia and waste 4 legions and the biggest auxiliary force of the empire for a small island in the north. They would have found less costly ways to secure the channel border. Perhaps a Classis Gallica. And with 40.000 men more in Germania, I am confident, that the romans had good chances to keep Germania, romanize and pacify it finally.

I also do not see civil wars. There were not that many usurpations during the principate until Severus Alexander. Actually just 2 critical ones after Nero and after Commodus. 2 major civil wars in 250 Years is not that much. It is even unlikely, that in this alternate history Caligula becomes emperor. Perhaps Drusus the Younger does not die in prison, because he is campaigning with his father. And of course Germanicus may not die in Syria. And if the julio-claudian dynasty does not die out (that soon), and/or brings no overchallenged "kids" like Caligula and Nero to the throne, the first civil war is butterflied away.

Of course there is a lot more to do, to avoid the 3rd century crisis 250 years later. The crisis is based on external threats, which are reduced somewhat now, and rather detrimental internal changes of structures in military, society and economy, which are harder to adress in a plausible story than just conquering a bit of Germania.
 
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The problem with the expansion to the Elbe and pacification
Of germania is there is not enough money in it on
The surface. Britannia however looked easy and rich with in the south a large Romano Celtic elite Perfect for an emperor needing a quick score. Germania even removing Varus will be a money pit initially but a saving eventually. Britain will be invaded prob by the 2nd century prob after the fall of the Julio Claudian dynasty by a Vespasian like military leader. However this might be good as it would give time for the proto type state based around large tribal confederations making it easier to conquer and control at least the south excluding Cornwall Wales and the north anyway.
 
How about turning Arminius into an agent provocateur in Varus' service, having him incite an uprising among those in Germania opposing Roman rule like he did in OTL, but backstabbing them instead of the Romans. The opposition to Roman rule in Germania would have been eviscerated for years, possibly even decades to come and Arminius might have been rewarded for his services to Rome by being elevated to the rank of a senator (he already was a roman citizen and member of the Equestrian order) by the emperor, which btw would not have been without precedence, Gaius Iulius Caesar appointed several celtic nobles who aided him conquering Gaul senators of Rome.
 
See also threads like (links to all the longer threads added)

Germania not Britannia (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Lindseyman

Romanized Germans? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Dorozhand

Plausibility Check: Reverse Teutoberger Wald
0zymandias

The Empire of Germanicus - a Roman TL (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6)
Onkel Willie

Saving Rome - is Germania enough? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5)
mikegold

Varus Dies Before Battle of Teutoburg Forest (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Anaxagoras

WI no Teutoberger Wald ?
Melvin Loh

WI Varus beats Arminius? (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Don_Giorgio
 
How about turning Arminius into an agent provocateur in Varus' service, ...

That would make a nice novel. But not a plausible alternate history. Because Arminius was no roman agent.

Regarding Caesar and the new senators: afaik these guys were local roman nobles with gallic roots from the Gallia Narbonennsis; the oldest roman province. And not celtic tribe leaders from the Gallia Comata. Families, which have been roman since generations. Consequently Decimus Valerius Asiaticus from Vienna became probably the first roman Consul with gallic roots (Allobroges) in 35 AD iirc. His family became roman in 80 BC.
 
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Consequently Decimus Valerius Asiaticus from Vienna became probably the first roman Consul with gallic roots (Allobroges) in 35 AD iirc. His family became roman in 80 BC.

Vienna? Don't you mean Vienne? The latter was/is a city in Gaul. The former is, well, on the wrong side of the Alps, and didn't exist yet.
 
Best way to prevent Teutoburg is to prevent the Great Illyrian Revolt, or destroy it in its infancy. That's what forced Tiberius and most of the legions in Germania (which were preparing to invade Marcomannia at the time) to be recalled, thus putting Varus in charge of Roman operations there temporarily. As Cassius Dio mentioned, Roman manpower was completely spent. Augustus had to resort to buying and conscripting slaves. So the loss of 3 legions at Teutoburg was simply irreplaceable at the time, which is why the Romans panicked and pulled back to the Rhine completely.
 
As Cassius Dio mentioned, Roman manpower was completely spent.

Exactly, a lot of units were needed to guard Pannonia/Illyricum after the recent revolt. I am not sure how many legions were based in Germania in 9 AD. It seems, just the 3 legions, Varus has lost, and 2 more in Montogiacum commanded by Asprenas. So 5 legions plus auxilia in total.

During Caligulas reign, we had 11 legions in Germania. Well, 2 of them were just recently raised in preparation of Caligulas planned invasion of Britannia. But this huge difference of at least 9 to 5 shows, how heavily the romans were still engaged in Pannonia. And imagine, what the romans could have done without invading Britannia.

Arminius started his attack at the right time, at the right place, and against the right commander. Even if Varus was perhaps not the worst commander, like roman historians tried to make us believe.
 
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