extent of British colonization in Southern Cone from 1807

Which outcome of a British victory in 1807 sounds the most realistic?


  • Total voters
    95
Until recently, I've thought that with a British victory in Buenos Aires in 1807, virtually all of Argentina/Uruguay would have become a British colony, with British settlers as a consequence coming and developing the country much like Australia or Canada and ending up with a Canada-style English-Spanish split as well as First World status. (All of this would definitely still hold true if the POD were in the 1700s, when Buenos Aires was much less populated than it would be by 1806 and when the British at least planned to make advances on the River Plate region.)

In recent months, as reflected in some other threads, I've thought up of something rather different, because I've read brand-new books on the 1806-07 British invasions of the Rio de la Plata and I've reread some other books on that subject. I've investigated the circumstances around those invasions (for the British and the local inhabitants alike) much more carefully than before. I've come to the conclusion that a British Argentina (i.e. along the lines of Canada, Australia, and similar British colonies/dominions) consisting of real-life Argentina and Uruguay would have been kind of unrealistic.

Instead, a strong possibility for the medium to long term, from roughly 1810 onward, is for an independent Argentina with enhanced British influence (because the new British government of 1807 was into economic much more than political influence in Latin America in general, and because the Buenos Aires inhabitants now wanted independence way more than continued imperial rule, Spanish or British), plus (at the same time) a British Uruguay - including a sliver of land in the north that is these days OTL a part of Brazil. Meaning that Uruguay today would be narrow-majority Anglo (but 40-45% Spanish-speaking) as well as First World and continuously democratic. Plus, if the British are already at it in Uruguay, they're much more likely to go for much if not all of Patagonia as well, including the Strait of Magellan, Tierra del Fuego, and the Falklands, so that Patagonia, too, becomes a British colony (at least eventually), and would become at least 90% Anglo and, of course, First World. If they're already at it in both Uruguay and Patagonia, they'll probably go also for the southern coast of OTL Buenos Aires Province - that would also be at least 90% Anglo and First World, and I've thought of "Victoria" as the name of that colony/province. Hence, an independent, Spanish-speaking Argentina with some extra British influence (much like American influence in Cuba from 1898 to 1959), plus British Uruguay, Patagonia, and so forth. The British possessions around Argentina perhaps get united into one single dominion in the late 1800s/early 1900s in the manner of Canada, Australia, South Africa, or (later on) Malaysia, with that dominion (now a Commonwealth country) being called "Platina".

Under that scenario, it is Platina, not Argentina as a whole, that becomes the only genuinely developed country in South America and the only English-speaking country in South America aside from Guyana. At the same time, it is Platina (esp. Uruguay), not Argentina as a whole, that is split between English and Spanish, not unlike Canada. As for the rest of Argentina, for a very long time it's a British client state even more than in real life and it has fundamentally the same issues as in real life.

In connection with the poll choices above, what I'm saying here is a compromise between the British keeping both Buenos Aires and Montevideo and the British keeping neither of those cities.

Please let me what you think!
 
Depends how long it needs to be British for to qualify.

My poll choices really refer to the medium- to long-term - that is, from roughly 1808-1810. In the short term, from 1807 to 1808-10, the British occupy all of the Rio de la Plata as a colony no matter what.
 

Deleted member 67076

I think there is a problem in assuming if something stays within the British Orbit it shall be automatically First World.

The Rio Plata basin would still need to diversify its economy and pursue industrialization to keep pace with the great powers. I don't exactly see how merely remaining in the British orbit will allow that.

Its also worth noting that, if you have a British Patagonian colony you've now further involved the Brits in Latin American affairs. This may or may not be detrimental to the colonial development (What with the need to garrison troops, lesser investor confidence seeing the region for setting up factories, repeated military conflicts that may see destruction of infrastructure, more French and/or German investment in a rival eager for that land, etc).
 
Argentina was a first-world country in the first half of the 20c, so you need to ask yourself what kind of developments would've led an English state to maintain its income relative to that of Europe and the US where Argentina's slid.
 
I think there is a problem in assuming if something stays within the British Orbit it shall be automatically First World.

The Rio Plata basin would still need to diversify its economy and pursue industrialization to keep pace with the great powers. I don't exactly see how merely remaining in the British orbit will allow that.

Its also worth noting that, if you have a British Patagonian colony you've now further involved the Brits in Latin American affairs. This may or may not be detrimental to the colonial development (What with the need to garrison troops, lesser investor confidence seeing the region for setting up factories, repeated military conflicts that may see destruction of infrastructure, more French and/or German investment in a rival eager for that land, etc).

NZ never really pursued industrialization and yet clearly became first world.
 
Argentina was a first-world country in the first half of the 20c, so you need to ask yourself what kind of developments would've led an English state to maintain its income relative to that of Europe and the US where Argentina's slid.

What Argentina needed to remain First World was a stable political climate. If, under British influence, they implented a British parliamentairy system similair we see IOTL Canada, Australia and NZ would they have remained more stable? If the political climate is terrible extremism and coups can still happen even if it is British.
 
What Argentina needed to remain First World was a stable political climate. If, under British influence, they implented a British parliamentairy system similair we see IOTL Canada, Australia and NZ would they have remained more stable? If the political climate is terrible extremism and coups can still happen even if it is British.
I would think the Spanish settlers are going to be resistent to at least something done by the British and it would surely cause instability, quite more than Quebec.
 
I would think the Spanish settlers are going to be resistent to at least something done by the British and it would surely cause instability, quite more than Quebec.

If they conquer it yes. But what if the Brits let Argentina become independent as some sort of puppet and only take Uruguay and Patagonia as OP stated? Argentina would be independent, albeit under heavy British influence.

Something like this map I made up. Argentina would be under British influence, but I am at work so I had to make it quick.

Argentina.png
 
I think there is a problem in assuming if something stays within the British Orbit it shall be automatically First World.

As Socrates was kind of getting into, Australia, New Zealand, and white South Africa - all white dominions under the British orbit in the southern hemisphere which haven't industrialized quite as heavily as North America or Western Europe or Japan - became First World. Platina (the British Uruguay-cum-Patagonia combination) has much more in common with Australia/NZ or white South Africa than with the British Caribbean, Africa, or India.

Argentina was a first-world country in the first half of the 20c, so you need to ask yourself what kind of developments would've led an English state to maintain its income relative to that of Europe and the US where Argentina's slid.

I've recently read a book under the title "The Other Argentina" by Larry Sawers, from 1996, stating how the Argentine interior (especially the Northwest and Northeast, but even the Cuyo and Patagonia to varying degrees) has been consistently quite backward, utterly lacking viable, long-term agricultural resources. For example, the sugar industry in Tucuman, the agricultural mainstay there, has been kept afloat only because of tariffs and governmental subsidies, and it otherwise would have been done in by stiff competition from much better sugar in Brazil and the Caribbean. That economic and political backwardness, according to Sawers, has had a deleterious effect on all of Argentina in terms of the poor of those areas moving to the Pampas and setting up shantytowns around cities like Buenos Aires, the rich of those areas bringing their corrupt, autocratic, and clientelistic political and economic culture to the Argentine polity, and draining the Argentine national treasury in order to subsidize industry and other initiatives in the interior. Such factors are important, if not essential, in explaining why Argentina has fallen so far behind Canada and Australia, and would have been much the same with heavier British influence and being next to British Platina. In other words, while the Pampas have been as agriculturally rich as the arable areas in Canada and Australia, the Argentine interior has been not as agriculturally rich. Of course, Argentina as a whole has had the colonial and cultural legacy of the Spaniards also, contributing greatly to its less than perfect development record. If Argentina as a whole had been taken over by the British, the British would have modernized the interior in due course.

If they conquer it yes. But what if the Brits let Argentina become independent as some sort of puppet and only take Uruguay and Patagonia as OP stated? Argentina would be independent, albeit under heavy British influence.

Something like this map I made up. Argentina would be under British influence, but I am at work so I had to make it quick.

Or, there's the map that I've made.

Platina map.jpg
 
dovibear,
you're giving an awful lot of valuable real estate to the Spanish. At the proposed timeframe (1807), only a small sliver south of the Parana river was populated by anyone other than natives. the border was the salada river, which you can barely see at the bottom point of the star on your map. If the Brits are going to solve the native problem, they should take all the very valuable pampas.
 

Don Quijote

Banned
dovibear,
you're giving an awful lot of valuable real estate to the Spanish. At the proposed timeframe (1807), only a small sliver south of the Parana river was populated by anyone other than natives. the border was the salada river, which you can barely see at the bottom point of the star on your map. If the Brits are going to solve the native problem, they should take all the very valuable pampas.

Well if the area isn't full of Spanish troops, Britain's task will be easier. I know they weren't always perfect towards native populations, but 1807 was the year the British abolished slavery, so they might be slightly more popular with the natives. However I don't think the British will be interested in expanding their South American lands beyond Uruguay, so I voted for the middle option.

At least we wouldn't have a Falklands War if we ruled Argentina for a while.
 
jc
the native population was, in large part, quite hostile. It was going to take quite a bit of troop presence to pacify or, as in OTL, genocide them. that's true pretty much through most of Patagonia. All that non European presence land was that way for a reason.

IF you get to the point of dovibear's map, you might as well take the Pampas, at least the southern half of it, while you're at it.

(edit): likewise, if you go through the effort to take Uruguay, might as well take the largely unpopulated Entre Rios region.
 
jc
the native population was, in large part, quite hostile. It was going to take quite a bit of troop presence to pacify or, as in OTL, genocide them. that's true pretty much through most of Patagonia. All that non European presence land was that way for a reason.

The Maori in New Zealand were at least almost as hostile as the Indians in Patagonia.

The British would have perhaps used some of the Indians as their allies to fight off the more hostile Indians.
 
Personally, what I see happening is that upon Spain becoming an ally a year later (with the French invasion of Spain), Britain promises to return the conquered territory at the end of the conflict, while extorting trade privileges. None of it is a British colony, but the entire la plata region has a huge British presence/trade zone, which is what happened anyway within the next decade.

the colonial mercantile mindset was showing to be inferior to the open trade model, so there was no reason to expend a lot of money to maintain a colony. excess population could go to the US, where the US was proving to be a valuable trade partner, or if they wanted, could still go to Argentina/Uruguay.

It would have been thorny to take over a colony from an ally, but could have been done IF it was advantageous. There simply was no need.
 
New Zealand never had a military coup in its history. Or several.

Indeed, but I think this can be at least partly ascribed to a deeper and more ingrained culture of representative governance that comes from British rule and British settlement. On the other hand, I question how stable the Plate can be with British domination this late. The revolutionary period has started and I don't see how willing the Spanish speakers will be to accept British forces in their midsts. The Brits are probably going to try to federalise the area, direct colonies and protectorates alike, as they did in South Africa. The Platineans will likely revolt over that.
 
likewise, if you go through the effort to take Uruguay, might as well take the largely unpopulated Entre Rios region.

I'm wondering why, then, Entre Rios ended up OTL under the control of Buenos Aires and not Montevideo after 1820, when Entre Rios signed a pact with Buenos Aires and Santa Fe provinces? After all, Artigas' Liga Federal did control Entre Rios as well as Uruguay itself in 1814-15 or so.

Indeed, but I think this can be at least partly ascribed to a deeper and more ingrained culture of representative governance that comes from British rule and British settlement. On the other hand, I question how stable the Plate can be with British domination this late. The revolutionary period has started and I don't see how willing the Spanish speakers will be to accept British forces in their midsts. The Brits are probably going to try to federalise the area, direct colonies and protectorates alike, as they did in South Africa. The Platineans will likely revolt over that.

Some Spanish-speakers would accept the British more than others. Federalization attempts, if there are any, between the various direct British colonies and the British independent client state would most probably fail, and the British would just federalize the direct colonies as Platina or whatever else its name would be.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Given the records of the British vis a vis the Argentines in 1806-07,

Until recently, I've thought that with a British victory in Buenos Aires in 1807, virtually all of Argentina/Uruguay would have become a British colony, with British settlers as a consequence coming and developing the country much like Australia or Canada and ending up with a Canada-style English-Spanish split as well as First World status. (All of this would definitely still hold true if the POD were in the 1700s, when Buenos Aires was much less populated than it would be by 1806 and when the British at least planned to make advances on the River Plate region.)

Given the records of the British vis a vis the Argentines in 1806-07, and again in 1845-50, and (for that matter) the fourth go-round in the Twentieth Century, what, exactly, leads you to believe Argentines had any desire to be colonized by Britain?

Kind of curious, here.

Best,
 
Top