Conradin, Holy Roman Emperor, King of Sicily, Germany, Italy and Jerusalem 1252-1317

Hi to all the members!!!

I'm a new member of this awesome discussion board and, as a fanatic of history, I'm excited to colaborate with a new thread.

Particulary, I'm was a huge fan of the Hohenstaufen dynasty, who ruled Germany from 1138 until 1254: they fight against the growing power of the Papacy, but at the end they were defeated.

The last legitimate male member of the family was Conradin, who at the age of sixteen was beheaded by orders of Charles I of Anjou, after his defeat in the Battle of Tagliacozzo in 1268.

Now, imagine that Conradin in fact resulted victorious in this fight, how could change the history of Europe asa result?......

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By effects to understood the alternative timelife of Conradin, I write the true events of his life until the Battle of Tagliacozzo.
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Sounds interesting.

My first, very rough guess would be the following:
Perhaps the Staufens keep themselves up as a dynasty with property in Italy.
I suppose their claims in Germany are basically lost. So we will have an (Southern) Italian dynasty which refers itself back to Swabia and Germany. However, that will change later perception of them completely: They won't be associated, or even identified with Germany as the Staufens were in the 19th century. Historians of this alternate after-time (?? conditional future II?) will certainly find another (Italian) term for this family, at least, its later branches.

Just a couple of ideas ...

Thanks for your suggestions Botho,

I had the idea that only Conradin could recover his rights in Germany after a long fight, but eventually divided the legacy among children and grandchildren. But if you had another ideas welcome!!!!

Continuation of the thread.....

1268 -- 20 November: Messina resisted the siege of the Staufen troops. The french commander of the Anjou army, Yves d'Alegre, determined to stop the way of Conradin to the Island of Sicily, proclamed that only over the ashes of Messina the usurper could pass.

11 December: News reached Staufen campament; Pope Clement IV died on 29 November leaving the Church without Head; however, Infante Henry reacted quickly, reunited the Cardinals at Saint Peter Basilica and forced under death threads that they can chose a Pro-Staufen Pope.

14 December: Unexpectedly, an army commanded by Dukes Louis II and Henry XIII of Bavaria, Count Meinhard II and King Alfonso X of Castile arrived by sea. The Bavarian Dukes and Count Meinhard are in person leaded his troops, and Infante Fernando of Castile (another brother of Infante Enrique) was in representation of his brother the King. Conradin, despite his resentment against his uncle and stepfather, who deserted him, received them with full honors.

15 December: After the water and food suplies of the city were cut by the Staufen troops, the population of Messina finally rebelled against the Frenchs and opened the city gates. Conradin entered to the city and inmediately declared a full pardon over all the partisans of the Angevin rule. Yves d'Alegre, captured, was conduced with chains to the King, who freed him with a message to Charles II: vengo per te (I'm coming for you).

16-22 December: One by one, the principal Sicilian cities surrender to Conradin as his savior and King. In Leonforte, the young King met the woman who become in the great love of his life, Maddalena, daughter of Guido Leggièri, castellan of the city. Almost ten years older than him, and married with a local lawyer, Sinisio da Copeshi, Conradin openly began to convivere with her. This attitude clearly was inherited from his grandfather and idol, Emperor Frederick II, a notorious womanizer. When he left the city, Maddalena follow him.

25 December: On Christmas Day, Conradin arrived to Cefalu, the last point of his route against Palermo and Charles II. There, he established his campament. The decisive Battle against Charles II was a matter of hours.

The idea of Conradin triumphing over Charles of Anjou, one of the more unappealing characters of the times, is attractive. We hardly know anything of Conradin's character, he was so young when judicially murdered, but clearly from his actions he was brave and determined. Always nice to turn a tragedy into a triumph, apart from all the interesting consequences that would flow from this reversal of history.

A nitpick, though; my understanding was that it was necessary to be elected German king/King of the Romans (I'm never sure which title applies at any one time, or if they both do) by the German princes before being crowned Emperor. In other words it would not be possible, or at any rate would be very much against precedent, for Conradin to assume the Imperial dignity while even temporarily eschewing German claims, as you have him doing.

Interesting start, i subscribe.

So actually Conradine had control over Latium, South Italy and Sicily, right? So it will be hard returning to North...

Speed of travel

The distance from Rome to Messina is more than 700 km, so it would take at least 10 days to get there, not 1 before the construction of a railroad between the Eternal City and Reggio di Calabria in the 19th century. The same holds true for news as well, since news could only travel as fast as a pigeon could fly before the invention of the telegraph.

Interesting, continue please.

Well, a little sad to see that the House of Anjou won't reach proheminence now that Charles I of Anjou is dead. Yet, he surely wasn't the best of the French princes of the time : he had a tendency to act for himself first.

But shouldn't Louis IX of France (future Saint Louis) intervene by this point? Charles I of Anjou was his younger brother, making young Charles II his nephew. Louis IX could be tempted to help his nephew, or try to find a compromise bewteen Conradin and Charles II. Louis IX was quite a respected monarch in Europe and was sometimes seeked as an arbiter between conflicts.

Also, how will that affect the eighth crusade? Charles I of Anjou played a heavy part in directing it to Tunisia rather than the Holy Land.

Interesting. subscribed!

Thanks for the support to my thread!!!

And I correct the timeline of the travels; please, if anybody had corrections of suggestions, all is welcome!!!!

Maybe the Hauhenstaufens will keep a unit of Saracen Archers as part of their army? If Charles of Anjou is defeated, perhaps the Saracens would be an integral part of their army. Which if you were to really "wank it" might lead to an Saracen force of hand-canoneers.

Domenic said:

A nitpick, though; my understanding was that it was necessary to be elected German king/King of the Romans (I'm never sure which title applies at any one time, or if they both do) by the German princes before being crowned Emperor.

Click to expand...

This is completely true, and I think this is very relevant to the TL.
The Pope has never had a direct competence to crown a German King (even if the tried hard to have a say in it).

On the other hand, it might be possible that a Pope tries to go back several centuries and take the freedom to decide who to crown Emperor, may he be elected King before or not. I consider this a possible scenario, but this requires the Pope to be a very singular, revolutionary person, who is likely to cause trouble in other regions as well. (Basically I'm saying he's going for a leading part, not an extra in this TL.)
Moreover, if he undertakes such a daring action, this is going to stir attention and reactions of all kinds. These did not sufficiently come up in the TL by now ...

You're right Boto, thanks!!

I change a little bit the previous posts and accomodate dates.

Continuation of the thread.....

1269 -- 2 January: King Louis IX of France, brother of the late Charles I, arrived to Palermo with his troops to help his nephew. This was made in his route to the Holy Land after the news of his brother's death and the convulsed situation in Sicily.

4 January: After hearing the news of the arrival to the French King, and against all the advices who prevented him, Conradin, who had some contacts with the Saracens in the beginning of his campaign, finally decided to made an alliance with them. In exchange of their help, they wanted the free trade between Muslims and Christians in the estrategic port of Acre, the only remaining city of the old Kingdom of Jerusalem who remained in the Crusade hands. Conradin, as King of Jerusalem, accepted.

6 January: An army of 25,000 Saracens arrived to the port of Messina and quickly moved in order to reunited with the Staufen troops. Louis IX, seeing that his troops are significant smaller and also are hesitants to fight for a child, decided to avoid any useless confrontation and began the peace negociations with Conradin.

7 January: The combined Saracen-Staufen army arrived at the gates of Palermo. Louis IX, Charles II and his stepmother Margaret of Burgundy (second wife and widow of Charles I), followed by the Angevin generals, left the city and entered in Conradin's camp.

8-12 January: Peace negociations are difficult; Louis IX, who wanted to save a part of the lost Kingdom for his nephew, accept the defeat only if Charles II obtain the Duchy of Apulia and the Principality of Taranto. Conradin firmly refused: he knew that if even an small part of the Kingdom remained under Angevin hands, this could be a constant threat to his rule.

Then, the French King made another offer: a monetary compensation to Charles II and the betrothal of Conradin with Charles II's eldest unmarried sister Beatrice. Louis IX expected in that way mantain some sort of French injerence in Sicily. Again, Conradin refused, but at the end, adviced by Infante Fadrique, accepted give the compensation to Charles II. About the marriage with Princess Beatrice of Anjou, Conradin refused, officialy because his judicial marriage with Sophie of Landsberg but in reality he noted the intentions of the King and was determined to get rid any French intervention in his rule.

Another part of the peacy treaty defined the situation of the Angevin partisans in Sicily: all the born-French subjects had the chance to return home with all their possesions, and the Sicilian subjects who publicily support the Frenchs ara also able to left the Island, but if they decided to stay, they are forced to swore fidelity to the King and surrended half of their patrimony to the Royal Treasure.

About the local nobles who support Charles I and II, Conradin showed iron hand: they were stripped from his properties and banished from the Kingdom.

13 January: The Treaty of Palermo is formally signed. On behalf of Charles II, his stepmother Margaret (appointed as regent by her husband in his will) signed for him, according to chronicles, with tears in her eyes. In addition, a treaty of "mutual help and brotherhood" was signed between Conradin and Louis IX. Again, the French approached him with a possible marriage to him, this time with his own daughter Blanche, but Conradin politely refused.

14 January: Louis IX and his troops continue his travel to Jerusalem. Charles II and his family left Palermo and embarked to France. Conradin, with the helmet of his grandfather Frederick II and the sword of his ancestor Roger II of Sicily entered in the city as a King.

In a magnificent ceremony, Conradin is again crowned King of Sicily, this time in the old Palermo Cathedral, and with the coronation crown used by his grandfather.

TO BE CONTINUED.....

Fascinating. I look forward to seeing how this continues.

Great TL! The Hohenstaufen are interesting, but this will butterfly away the rapid rise* of the house of Habsburg and the house of Luxemburg. (*= they may gain in importance, for instance the house of Habsburg were supporters of the house of Hohenstaufen).
Although I have my doubts about refusing a diplomatic political marriage with a Capetian or Capetian Angevin princess. Another nitpick is that Charles probably would have left for the county of Provence (and Forcalquier), which was a part of the Holy Roman Empire and was the most wealthy possession of his house, but a visit to the counties of Anjou and Maine could be possible .

Continuation of the thread.....

1269 -- 17 January: The principal nobles of the Kingdom of Sicily swore fidelity to Conradin and recognized him as their only Lord and King in the Palazzo dei Normanni.

February: News reached from Rome: On 23 December, and after a controversial election (Infante Enrique, breaking all the protocol of a Pope's choice, remained present in the votation with an army), was chosen as new Pope Guelfo di Pettorano (son of Frederick of Pettorano, an illegitimate son of Frederick II), who took the name of Gregory X. The city of Rome celebrate the election of an "truly Italian" during weeks.

18 March: Conradin confirmed the Constitutions of Melfi, the law codes promulged by Frederick II in 1231. In the revision made to the codes, the King restricted even more the power of the local church and nobility, and, in a revolutionary move, the threatment to slaves and servants were radically limited all the Kingdom of Sicily. This actions gained him the title of padre della libertà (Father of the Freedom) from his subjects.

April: After almost twenty years of prison, King Enzio of Sardinia, the eldest illegitimate (and favorite) son of Frederick II, is liberated, after Conradin, through Infante Henry, paid a ransom to the rulers of Bologna. An skillful soldier and strategist, Conradin considered necesary his experience in his army, and also give to him the opportunity to meet the beloved son of his grandfather and hear from stories about Frederick II, his rise and downfall. At the same time, Conradin successfully negociated with the Frenchs the freedom of the widow and children of the late Manfred, who were imprisoned in Nocera (the widow) Castel del Monte (the sons) and Castel dell'Uovo (the daughters) since the defeat and death of Manfred at Benevento in 1266.

1 May: Enzio arrived to Palermo, where received a warm welcome. The first meeting between Conradin and his old uncle was emotional: Enzio, with tears in his eyes, solemnly inclined to Conradin, who extended his arms and also with tears, hugs him. The King appointed his uncle commander of the Italian army alongside with Mastino I della Scalla, who resented the arrival and rise of Enzio.

20 May: Helena Dukaina Angelina, widow of Manfred and her five children, Beatrice, Frederick, Henry, Anselmo and Flordelis, arrived to Palermo. Contrary to Enzio's reception, they entered in the city secretly at night. Maybe this was made because the terrible circumstances under which Manfred's family returned to Sicily could shocked anybody: the three sons were blinded, and after being kept in chains during all his captivity, they were mentally disturbed. Conradin give them appartments in the Palazzo dei Normanni to live.

TO BE CONTINUED.....

Southern Italy is going again towards an age of splendor after Friedrick II ?

This TL is more and more interesting. A more developed southern Italy is quite original and fresh ( I hope it lasts).