Inspired by this thread, let's try building something else. During the 1950s the RAF and FAA went through a large number of different designs, some adequate, others... not so much. So starting with a clean sheet of paper in 1950, and assuming the successful design should stay in service for at least a decade, what would a worthwhile RAF fighter look like? Feel free to specify engines, armament, systems, or anything else.
Let's build! A 1950's British fighter.
- Thread starter Gunnarnz
- Start date
The Hawker P.1081 seems like the obvious choice to me. If it had received a decent amount of domestic support it might have been able to be developed into something vaguely comparable in performance to the F-86 Sabre, and hopefully from there with some sort of follow-on improved Hunter. If you want it to serve for a large part of the 1950s then you may have to allow for a slightly earlier point of divergence - with the speed that the technology was developing and knowledge expanding aircraft development times, especially British ones, could be a number of years.
CL-13? Bah! If you're going with a Sabre derivative there's only one correct answer... and it doesn't come from either the Arctic wasteland or the rebel colonies.
Hunter is the only choice, it was more agile fighter than the Sabre, had better and heavier armament and lets be honest was much prettier too.
What is the mission?
Day time Interceptor?
Ground attack?
Light bomber?
Half the respondents prefer Canadian or Australian-built F-86 Sabres with big engines.
How hard would it be to up-gun Sabres with quad 20mm cannons.
Is it possible to add Sidewinder Air-to-air missiles?
Day time Interceptor?
Ground attack?
Light bomber?
Half the respondents prefer Canadian or Australian-built F-86 Sabres with big engines.
How hard would it be to up-gun Sabres with quad 20mm cannons.
Is it possible to add Sidewinder Air-to-air missiles?
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I was imagining something like a jet-engined version of the Mustang or Corsair - started out as a daylight air-superiority fighter, but did well in the ground attack role also. As for armament the quad 20mm seems like a decent choice. I'm sure I've seen pictures of the F-86 with Sidewinders, and I know one version had 2x 30mm guns, so the armament potential seems to be there.
Let me propose a start date of 1951: Helping out in Korea, the RAF first encountered the Mig 15 and got a naughty shock as it realized how far ahead the Russians were, compared to their own frontine fighters of the time: The Gloster Meteor, the DH Vampire and the Supermarine Attacker. Even the Vampire's upgraded successor, the Venom, just now entering service would be seriously challenged.
Looking at the Mig 15 and comparable aircraft like the USAF's F86 Sarbre, the following specifications are drawn up:
=> one person air superiority fighter
=> swept wing or delta wing
=> sufficient speed and range to take off from the RAF's West-German bases and engage a Warshaw Pact fjghter/bomber force before it enters NATO airspace.
=> possibility to upgrade to a radar equipped all weather fighter
=> if the project is still in planning by 1955, add supersonic capacity.
=> all-cannon armament if planned before 1955, air-to-air rockets afterwards. This means that a "winning" design that will stay in service for ten years or more will be either upgradable to rockets, or replaced by a mid-life redesign mark II that has AAR systems built in.
OTL, 1955 saw the introduction of the Hawker Hunter and Hawker Seahawk, later the Blackburn Buckaneer, Blister Javelin and English Electric Lightning as well as the not quite that successful Supermarine Swift and Scimitar. As all those aircraft were already in planning or flying as prototypes, given the right priorities their entry into service could be pushed forward by two, may be three years.
Furthermore there are two experimental research aircraft that possibly could be developed into great fighters: The Fairy Delta I and the Avro 707. By chance both of them deltas.
Finally, there is the possibility of a cooperation with either France or West German like OTL would happen in the sixties. I know this soul be a tricky subject in 1951, but with the right emphasis on 'we are all NATO now', could be pulled off by 1955, (perhaps pushing the otherwise unsuccessful 1955 Mirage 1 before it got developed into the 1959 Mirage III)
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De Havilland Gyron engined Hunter. Thrust to weight around 0.8, adapt for supersonic flight with coke- bottle styling and conformal tanks, and if you can get a decent air to air radar, problem solved- you could have something that would be in service into the eighties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hunter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Gyron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hunter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Gyron
Is your idea that the Sabre is built in place of Meteor F.8 and the Venom fighter-bomber for the RAF and the FJ Fury for the FAA in place of the Supermarine Attacker and Hawker Sea Hawk? Plus the F-86D/K/L for the RAF instead of the Meteor and Venom night fighters and the FAA in place of the Sea Venom?Just buy the CL-13 from Canadair. Here's one from Canada in the RAF's museum.
My suggestion if you're allowed the bend the clean sheet in 1950 criteria slightly would be to beat Sydney Camm around the head with a cricket bat until he accepts the data on compressibility and swept wings. The Hawker Sea Hawk is therefore built with swept wings becoming in effect our timeline's P.1052, the success of which sees it developed further with an all-moving swept tailplane and straight-through jet pipe moving its top speed up into the high subsonic region of around Mach 0.90 to 0.95 like the P.1081 "Australian Fighter". When this is developed into the Hunter with area ruling, other fuselage modifications, and re-designed wings they also include reheat, either on the original design or as a variant, to make it truly supersonic.
Not just 1957. Rationing was apparently a major issue in the 1950 election, and meat rationining was finally ended in 1954. Who's going to be the brave politician who stands up to tell the voting public they're going to tighten their belts* for a few more years to pay for better jets?
[*]Fortunately clothes rationing had ended in 1949, so anyone with the money could buy a belt. Luxury!
Actually it was 4 medium bombers because of the Short Sperrin. However, in defence of the Operational Requirements branch in the late 1940s they were to have been built in larger numbers (a front-line of 320 in 40 squadrons was planned by March 1958). Furthermore their plans were overtaken by events, that is the unexpected outbreak of the Korean War, led to the Victor and Vulcan being ordered into production, when the plan was to put one into production after the prototypes had been evaluated.
And I'm not sure that building one medium bomber instead of 4 would have saved a significant amount of money because they had common avionics and all the engines were used by other aircraft.