Successful English Referendum
- Thread starter yulzari
- Start date
It would no longer be part of the Union?
But seriously, is that possible? I mean, there's no separate English government like there is in Scotland and Wales, aren't there?
its a UK wide vote, although it would be interesting if England and NI narrowly voted to leave, and Scotland and Wales voted to stay. Would pose an interesting constitutional question.
Wales might finally become its own Kingdom instead of a Principality (assuming they are still in the Commonwealth and keep the Queen) as it wouldn't be a part of England any more.
The rump UK that remains might seeks stronger ties with Ireland in the spirit of 'Celtic brotherhood' or somesuch. Maybe you see Brittany split off from France and the Celtic nations (minus Cornwall and Mann which would remain part of England I think) come closer together and form some kind of association or the Celtic Congress becomes a political organisation.
If Northern Ireland becomes its own independent state without England, I'd expect tensions there to flare up again and something like the Troubles to start back up before too long.
But would it be a UK wide vote? Scotland's referendum was only for the Scots. Successive British governments have always denied the English a national status, speaking only of regions and a reaction is a noticeable rise in English awareness and the English flag is commonly seen whereas it was rarely seen years ago. Happily it has shed it's loony right wing associations and has been claimed back by the English people of varied origins.
The EU is far from a give away of national sovereignty. It is an umbrella under which nationalities can gain independence within a larger family. England, Catalonia, Lombardy, Flanders etc. can regain their identities without disbenefits of scale. A balkanisation of Europe might give Europe a common identity and purpose in the world that better fits it in the 21st century. This might be a platform from which the English vote for independence. The Commonwealth is a red herring. A valuable piece of social networking at a national level but the Europe is England's home. To the modern English the British Empire is as ancient and irrelevant as the Roman Empire is to Italians or the Spanish to Spaniards. The last election demonstrated that England is a distinct political animal to the rest of the Union.
The EU is far from a give away of national sovereignty. It is an umbrella under which nationalities can gain independence within a larger family. England, Catalonia, Lombardy, Flanders etc. can regain their identities without disbenefits of scale. A balkanisation of Europe might give Europe a common identity and purpose in the world that better fits it in the 21st century. This might be a platform from which the English vote for independence. The Commonwealth is a red herring. A valuable piece of social networking at a national level but the Europe is England's home. To the modern English the British Empire is as ancient and irrelevant as the Roman Empire is to Italians or the Spanish to Spaniards. The last election demonstrated that England is a distinct political animal to the rest of the Union.
god....freyjones
Banned
I doubt much would happen.
England may see itself as big enough to assume the UN Sec. Council role, or the G20. OK, the former may be a stretch, but the latter isn't. English GVA alone would be well within the top 10 GDPs if England ever become sovereign again.
I doubt it would have nukes, but it would be imho a UK-lite in many respects. This is not to be arrogant or biased/subjective as an Englishman, but England is more or less the reason the UK has a large world economy. And there is London,top unis like Oxbridge, UCL and LSE (arguably the best in the world bar the Ivy League). I think a sovereign England would do well.
England may see itself as big enough to assume the UN Sec. Council role, or the G20. OK, the former may be a stretch, but the latter isn't. English GVA alone would be well within the top 10 GDPs if England ever become sovereign again.
I doubt it would have nukes, but it would be imho a UK-lite in many respects. This is not to be arrogant or biased/subjective as an Englishman, but England is more or less the reason the UK has a large world economy. And there is London,top unis like Oxbridge, UCL and LSE (arguably the best in the world bar the Ivy League). I think a sovereign England would do well.
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
That's like... Russia leaving the Soviet union or Prussia deciding to secede from Germany. Or Turkey leaving the Ottoman Empire.
He means 'The' Union, not the EU. Aka 'what if England, not Scotland, had a big movement that wanted to break up the UK?'
Didn't two of those happen?
RodentRevolution
Banned
Well since a study conducted on the potential need to rebase Trident in the event of Scottish Independence found that there was a suitable set of sites in Devon and Cornwall and since it is the English tax base and borrowing capacity that largely (not allowed to say entirely because it makes the Scots cry but yes entirely) pays for things like Defence and Overseas Aid getting the UN security council seat would be largely a formality.
There simply is not the movement for English Independence though. It is not that British Governments suppress the English national identity so much as English national identity does not have the same kind of focus of cringe and resentment of the English as the other nationalisms in the Union.
Members of the Parliament at Westminster oppose an English National Parliament/Assembly on either the Scottish or Welsh models but that is simply a question of Money. UK wide expenditures simply do not compare with English expenditure... to give rough back of the napkin figures UK defence budget £43.2 billion, NHS England £95.6 billion. The thought of losing influence over that much money gives most MPs hives...Scotland and Wales get to play with their own toys merely because they are spending buttons by comparison.
I cannot see English Independence happening any time soon plus I can already think of a catchy NO vote slogan E.I? E.Y! but if it did happen it would not make a lot of difference...the hardest bit would be throwing stones at the Scots, Welsh and Ulstermen until they stopped trying to follow the English home
If Wales separates from England things just might get interesting.
Trouble is that for a very large group of residents Wales is just a placename, like Essex, Northumberland or Anglia, and they are handily concentrated in the south and northeast.
They may not want to leave England, though that depends on the situation.
That may be true overall, but there is a great deal of dissatisfaction on a regional level in England. English national Independence wouldn't address this, but regional devolution to a set of English States would.
Scotland and Wales are 'too small' only because 'England' is too big.
What is Wales?
This has always kinda confused me but what is Wales? Extensive research a while back only told me about the political entity of England and Wales and that Wales was technically a part of England but other sites with well Welsh nationalists only said that both were separate countries and that Wales was not England and needed to be identified as different. At the moment I'm going with the idea that it's complicated. Since according to my research until I think the 40s Wales was pretty much considered another piece of England and then as far as I know Plaid Cymru came along and mucked things up. And then that's when things get complicated in my eyes. So yea what is Wales exactly and what's its relationship with England? Though I'm pretty sure the answer probably goes back centuries. Sorry if this is a dumb question.
This has always kinda confused me but what is Wales? Extensive research a while back only told me about the political entity of England and Wales and that Wales was technically a part of England but other sites with well Welsh nationalists only said that both were separate countries and that Wales was not England and needed to be identified as different. At the moment I'm going with the idea that it's complicated. Since according to my research until I think the 40s Wales was pretty much considered another piece of England and then as far as I know Plaid Cymru came along and mucked things up. And then that's when things get complicated in my eyes. So yea what is Wales exactly and what's its relationship with England? Though I'm pretty sure the answer probably goes back centuries. Sorry if this is a dumb question.
Wales was a territory, united less often than not, that got conquered by Edward I of England. He established that the title of "Prince of Wales" would belong to the English throne's heir apparent. The result was that Wales was part of the Kingdom of England, which later fused with Scotland and Ireland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
Ireland eventually split north-south on religious lines, with the bulk going independent, yielding the Republic of Ireland, and the northern part staying within the renamed United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, though with some governmental powers devolved to a local parliament instead of being held by the national parliament at Westminster in London. This assembly was eventually suspended, but it was replaced in 1998. Also in that year, similar devolved parliaments were created in Scotland and in Wales.
So Wales is like Scotland and Northern Ireland (and, incidentally, unlike England) in that it is self-governing in certain internal affairs, but it is unlike them in that it is not, historically, (the loyalist part of) a kingdom separate from England.
No. The pro-independence Breton movements were never credible and pretty much died with the Parti National Breton (nazi collaborators). Most "nationalists" movements are actually regionalists, they want federalization (or at least more autonomy) and to protect Breton culture (the language is pretty much dead, few schools still teach it, only my grandparents speak it and not fluently). For Brittany to leave France you would need some kind of large scale civil war, as France wouldn't let part of its (european) territory go.
Tovarich
Banned
Dunno where you've been living for the past 47 years (my entire lifetime) but it can't have been England!
The unbolded bit of your post I quoted is absolutely true, though.
England flags that have Umbro logos on them don't count, neither do ones given away free with the Sun.
Tovarich
Banned
You don't get out much, then.
Seriously, 'St George/England' flags are everywhere.
And does simply owning a flag entitle somebody to be regarded as 'patriotic'?
So the concept of this is that the successor state of the UK would be Scotland, NI and Wales plus the colonies and such.
That would avoid many of the complications of those nations joining the EU if we were brought to a point where England voted to leave but the rest of the Kingdom voted to stay with the EU.
Be issues regarding things like Security Council seats that would make England want to claim successor ship.
That would avoid many of the complications of those nations joining the EU if we were brought to a point where England voted to leave but the rest of the Kingdom voted to stay with the EU.
Be issues regarding things like Security Council seats that would make England want to claim successor ship.
You don't get out much, then.
Seriously, 'St George/England' flags are everywhere.
And does simply owning a flag entitle somebody to be regarded as 'patriotic'?
Where I live the ration of English flags to British flags to Yorkshire flags is probably near 1:5:15