New Additions to the Allies and Axis

What if Sweden, Turkey, Venezuela, Argentina, Iran, and Finland joins the Axis and Switzerland and Portugal joins the Allies? Will the war last longer? Will the Axis have a better chance in winning? Please give me your thoughts/answers.

Switzerland joining the Allies is unthinkable because of its neutrality clause

Thehappyvampire said:

What if Sweden, Turkey, Venezuela, Argentina, and Iran joins the Axis and Switzerland and Portugal joins the Allies? Will the war last longer? Will the Axis have a better chance in winning? Please give me your thoughts/answers.

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Oh, cool scenario.

Ok then, first off, you could see Brazil and Mexico joining the war on the side of the Allies. Chile might get involved too. This could turn the South American theater into a real part of the war. Turkey and Iran being in the Axis poses a major threat to the USSR and to British oil supplies in the Middle East. Expect that to be a much bigger theater than OTL. Switzerland joining the war in unlikely, due to its neutrality clause. Portugal joining would have a negligible effect, but may have the horrifying side effect of pushing Spain to join the Axis.

Ultimately, though, I'm not sure how much it changes in Europe. The Allies still have a ridiculous advantage when it comes to manpower and industry, and the factories of America and Canada are still untouchable. Best case for the Axis, they cripple the USSR, only to be defeated by the Western Allies sometime around 1946-1948. Worst case for the Axis, Soviet tanks roll into Istanbul and Tehran in about the same timeframe.

In the postwar era, you would probably see much closer relations between the US and South America. Brazil would become a major US ally too. Instead of NATO, you might end up seeing ATO (Atlantic Treaty Organization). Long-term, it's possible that American aid could help kickstart industrialization in South America, which will make the continent much more developed in the long run.

Edit: On second thought, there is one way to get Switzerland into the war. Just have Germany invade. I wouldn't mind reading a TL where Fortress Switzerland become's Hitler's version of the Peninsular War.

Um, no....nothing to gain and everything to lose

Thehappyvampire said:

What if Sweden, Turkey, Venezuela, Argentina, and Iran joins the Axis and Switzerland and Portugal joins the Allies? Will the war last longer? Will the Axis have a better chance in winning? Please give me your thoughts/answers.

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The Western Hemisphere nations have nothing to gain and everything to lose by allying with ANY European power; you'll note none entered the war before Pearl Harbor.

Iran was conquered by the Soviets and British in less than a week's worth of fighting in 1941.

Turkey had barely survived WW I.

Sweden and Switzerland were neutrals for a reason - geography.

Portugal joined the Allies in everything but an actual declaration of war in 1942-43; by remaining neutral until then, there is a strong case to be made that Spain was equally likely to remain neutral, which certainly benefitted the Allies more than yet another active theater would have...

Best,

TFSmith121 said:

The Western Hemisphere nations have nothing to gain and everything to lose by allying with ANY European power; you'll note none entered the war before Pearl Harbor.

Iran was conquered by the Soviets and British in less than a week's worth of fighting in 1941.

Turkey had barely survived WW I.

Sweden and Switzerland were neutrals for a reason - geography.

Portugal joined the Allies in everything but an actual declaration of war in 1942-43; by remaining neutral until then, there is a strong case to be made that Spain was equally likely to remain neutral, which certainly benefitted the Allies more than yet another active theater would have...

Best,

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I've always thought that Spain would be more of a problem for the germans than the allies since the Atlantic wall would have to be extended along the spanish coast meaning german forces would be more thinly spread.

idontlikesand said:

I've always thought that Spain would be more of a problem for the germans than the allies since the Atlantic wall would have to be extended along the spanish coast meaning german forces would be more thinly spread.

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I doubt the Germans would have bothered fortifying the Spanish coast. The Pyrenees would probably be enough to deter an Allied invasion through Spain. The real problems are the hundreds of thousands of Allied bullet catch- er, I mean, Axis troops that Spain brings to the table.

Possibly, but the Germans had a hard time leaving ANYWHERE

CthulhuFhtagn said:

I doubt the Germans would have bothered fortifying the Spanish coast. The Pyrenees would probably be enough to deter an Allied invasion through Spain. The real problems are the hundreds of thousands of Allied bullet catch- er, I mean, Axis troops that Spain brings to the table.

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Possibly, but the Germans had a hard time leaving ANYWHERE undefended, historically.

They were moving troops into Italy before HUSKY, after all.

And whatever Spain can bring to the Axis economic table, presumably the Germans would want to hang on to it... they were short of everything, anyway.

Best,

Thehappyvampire said:

What if Sweden, Turkey, Venezuela, Argentina, and Iran joins the Axis and Switzerland and Portugal joins the Allies? Will the war last longer? Will the Axis have a better chance in winning? Please give me your thoughts/answers.

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Having more Axis powers without any power to match Allied military and industrial power (without US and USSR) is just a hindrance for the Axis. Take for example Italy. They were a hindrance to a more successful Germany in WW2.

Had it been fewer, like say only British and French Empires, USSR vs Germany, Germany would have a better chance than trying to waste resources and time in Greece and Africa in OTL.

Namayan said:

Having more Axis powers without any power to match Allied military and industrial power (without US and USSR) is just a hindrance for the Axis. Take for example Italy. They were a hindrance to a more successful Germany in WW2.

Had it been fewer, like say only British and French Empires, USSR vs Germany, Germany would have a better chance than trying to waste resources and time in Greece and Africa in OTL.

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Wouldn't pro Axis nations in theatres away from Europe be a distraction value at least to the Allies especially pre 1941?

TFSmith121 said:

And whatever Spain can bring to the Axis economic table, presumably the Germans would want to hang on to it... they were short of everything, anyway.

Best,

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And they'll be even shorter once they have to start supplying Spanish troops as well.

Ireland for the allies after December 7, but working with the Americans.

Could Germany have made an offer to Syria (especially the SSNP) to ensure their independence as promised in the 1930 accord as maybe an addition to the Second Compeigne armstice, and get oil from them (shipped through either Italy or Yugoslavia) in return for German weapons and infrastructure? I'd imagine having a co-belligerent right next to Egypt and Iraq would be a plus for the Axis.

Not really, they're either under Vichy France, or under the allies, and since Germany has only crumbs to spare anyway...

Thehappyvampire said:

What if Sweden, Turkey, Venezuela, Argentina, and Iran joins the Axis and Switzerland and Portugal joins the Allies? Will the war last longer? Will the Axis have a better chance in winning? Please give me your thoughts/answers.

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Why would Argentina join the Axis? At this point in time its very closely aligned with the UK, trading huge amounts of beef to them amongst other things. If you're thinking Falklands its not an issue yet and won't be for a few years.

Again, why would Turkey pick a side? They lost horribly last time, they don't want to repeat that mistake, especially with Ataturk in charge.

Sweden provided useful middle ground between the allies and axis, its less likely to be conquered. They might join if the Soviets take Finland but that opens it own can of worms.

As others have noted, American influence (both soft power and hard power) is enough to intimidate any Western hemisphere nations from joining the Axis.

Iran, Syria, etc. all get overrun in a couple weeks because they have no support. Turkey tended to be marginally pro-Allies, but definitely doesn't want to get involved in another war.

I can't see Turkey joining the Axis. For a number of reasons. Has anyone else ever read Istanbul Intrigues?

Fairdowner said:

Wouldn't pro Axis nations in theatres away from Europe be a distraction value at least to the Allies especially pre 1941?

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The British had to fight in the middle east, africa, china and chase the german navy around the world in WW1 and it didn't distract them from europe. Don't see why that should change this time round.

You can easily get Switzerland in the war by having the Reich invade it, simple.

Overall, from what I have read, the interior flat part of Switzerland would probably easily fall to outright military force, but the Alps and Jura Mountains provide a great base for a long term guerilla campaign not unlike Yugoslavia, but worse for the Reich.

MattII said:

Ireland for the allies after December 7, but working with the Americans.

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Why? Ireland would be just a burden with limited extra support to the allies and from 1942 onwards the basing benefits would have been little extra value.

CthulhuFhtagn said:

Edit: On second thought, there is one way to get Switzerland into the war. Just have Germany invade. I wouldn't mind reading a TL where Fortress Switzerland become's Hitler's version of the Peninsular War.

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Old joke, probly dates from the era:
German General: "How many in the Swiss army?"

Swiss military attache: "About 500,000. Every man has his rifle over the door. Mobilization would take less than a day."

General: "So what happens if I put a million men over the border tomorrow?"

Attach: "Every man in Switzerland will shoot twice."

TFSmith121 said:

Possibly, but the Germans had a hard time leaving ANYWHERE undefended, historically.

They were moving troops into Italy before HUSKY, after all.

And whatever Spain can bring to the Axis economic table, presumably the Germans would want to hang on to it... they were short of everything, anyway.

Best,

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You want a better example? Norway.
Hard to invade. Troops there can't be easily recalled. Little value.
Population as of 1944 was 11% Wermacht!