Wisdom Of The Olds - A Roman industrialization TL

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Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Wisdom Of The Olds - A Roman industrialization TL
How the Romans discovered the power of boiling water

After writing my little Trajan TL ending with a Roman Empire having conquered Mesopotamia, but being more than overstretched and constantly threatened by the rebellion of some powerful general in the east, I was searching for another good POD to save the Roman Empire and make it even more mighty and glorious than OTL – sadly, the POD of Rome industrializing and modernizing itself is hardly exploited, even if the mechanization of transports, industry and agriculture would be largely enough to maintain the empire for centuries. I decided to begin this timeline with a little analysis of the potential of Roman industry and science.


What is industrialization?
This is maybe the most important question. What do we mean when speaking of an industrialized country? Usually, we think of a whole process, including the accumulation of capital, the agricultural revolution, the introduction of labor division, the mechanization of the textile industry, and, as part of this process, the invention and improvement of the steam engine.
For different reasons, I will concentrate on the latter in this TL – but this doesn’t mean other elements of industrialization don’t exist in the world I conceive. Rudiments of mechanization developed already in ancient times (like water mills) will continue to exist and to be enhanced even if the evolution of a steam engine will make up the core of the process I describe.


Is the ancient world capable of industrializing?
Absolutely. Though ancient times knew some impediments to industrialization, like slavery, a generally conservative mindset, the absence of patent law, the disregard of practical work or the arrogance of the “civilized” Empire, the geographic conditions can be described as ideal – natural resources like coal or iron are easily obtainable, and though the population was smaller than the European population in 1800, mechanization in some sectors can free up a large mass of workers (slaves formerly working in agriculture) available for factory work.

Can Rome industrialize while being based on slave labor?
Slavery was an important factor with regard to the technological and scientific stagnation of the Roman Empire. Yet, elements of ancient mechanization existed not against, but together with slavery (like the water mill or the vallus), and slaves could be and were used as labor force in early factories and manufactures, as were low-wage employees in the 19th century. You might argue that slavery was a certain constraint for industrial progress, but simply denying the possibility of a Roman industrial revolution because of the number of slaves (declining since the 1st century CE) is ignoring that modern industrialization took place during a time in which cheap labor was available, as cheap labor represented by slave labor was available in the ancient world.

Was Roman metallurgy qualified for industrial tasks?
Roman metallurgy relied mainly on iron age techniques and thus wasn’t very elaborated – though, claiming that an ancient industrialization would inevitably founder on the lack of appropriate metallurgy is as shortsighted as saying that 15th century Europe couldn’t use gunpowder because of its rather primitive knowledge of how to treat iron to construct artillery. The opposite is true: once the principle and the value of a machine is recognized, progress in other areas (like metallurgy or theoretic physics) will be encouraged by the will to perfect the apparatus.

Where will the needed workforce come from?
Modern industrial revolution was partially caused by the British agricultural revolution of the 18th century, freeing up workers which in turn emigrated from rural regions into the cities and made up the urban workforce fueling industrialization. Since the Roman Empire was based on an agrarian economy, and the largest part of workmen bound to agriculture, it seems logical to conclude that every movement towards industrialization was impossible in ancient times due to the lack of agricultural productivity. However, first beginnings of mechanization were present even in Roman farming (like the Gallic harvesting machine vallus or the utilization of water mills on the countryside), and it’s probable that industrialization on other areas will provoke a change of Roman mentality and encourage a further mechanization of agriculture.

Will Roman industrialization be provoked by the aeolipile?
Ctesibius‘ machine named aelopile may play a certain role in developing a concept of a steam powered machine, but since it needs way to much energy to fulfill constructive tasks, it has to be replaced with other machines which, relying on steam power too, are working more efficiently than that ancient steam turbine.

How long will it take to develop a Roman steam engine?
Since Rome is, in many aspects of scientific and technical advance, comparable to our 17th century, it isn’t hard to realize that the way from the first experiments with steam power lifting weights (like the construction Papin presented in Marburg in 1690) to a working steam locomotive (like the Rocket presented by Stephenson in 1829) will take an equal amount of time in ancient Rome.

Where will the development of a steam engine start?
The fate of OTL’s steam engine is inextricably linked with the moving of water out of mines. Pumping water is quite easy and requires only a simple piston mechanism (known In the ancient world since Ctesibius’ works in the 3rd cenutry BCE). Additionally, primitive atmospheric engines relied on similar piston constructions, shortening the mental distance between water pumps and machines propelling these pumps.
Yet, starting the industrial revolution in the mines has another advantage. Since most of the mines inside the Roman Empire belonged to the Emperor, and since the Emperor is the richest men of the Imperium, a well thought out and convincing draft can receive nearly unlimited financial support of the Emperor's ficus. Thus, the Emperor becomes the driving force of industrialization by financing and using the revolutionary machines.
 
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I liked your first timeline, so will be reading with interest.

Roman industrialisation has been discussed extensively in the past, so there is a wealth of information available if you want to look around. I'm personally a fan of the "Roman Renaissance" idea that gets tossed around on occasion: it's easier to have Rome undergo a commercial, scientific, and paper revolution than it is to just jump to the industrialisation period. Of course, I'll be waiting to see how you handle it.
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
I liked your first timeline, so will be reading with interest.

Great! Good to see you!

Roman industrialisation has been discussed extensively in the past, so there is a wealth of information available if you want to look around. I'm personally a fan of the "Roman Renaissance" idea that gets tossed around on occasion: it's easier to have Rome undergo a commercial, scientific, and paper revolution than it is to just jump to the industrialisation period. Of course, I'll be waiting to see how you handle it.

I already read some of the Roman steam power TLs on the board, and in some of these the tone was quite... rude. But I learned one or two things I didn't know until then, namely that the aeolipile was something very helpful to understand the powers of nature, but nothing you could use as an engine, and that the development of a steam engine requires to know about pressure, vacuum, construction of boilers, cylinders and pistons. I intend to put realism and plausibility in the story by stretching the time needed for an invention and by including the power of hazard and butterflies.
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
#1: The son of Mytilene

So let's begin.

GOOD, I wonder why this going to be realive.

It has it own timeline once but It seem that Iuppier have give second try

Hope this isn't bad comment:p N. B.: It was Vulcanus, not Iuppiter who gave the story a second chance.

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The son of Mytilene
80 - 56

If we want to tell the story of the first steam engine, we could go back as far as Alexander the Great. His conquest opened Egypt to the Macedonian dynasty of the Lagidae, and the Lagids were followed by philosophers and mechanics – king Ptolemy, the first of his name, gave them a habitat for their knowledge, the world-famous Library of Alexandria and a home for their research, the Musaeum.
Of the first Alexandrian sages, Ctesibius was the most wise and the most famous. He wrote about the characteristics of air and water and how to use them – he was both a philosopher and an inventor, even if some of its devices were nothing more than gadgetry. And Ctesibius, besides all of his other achievements, was the first engineer to use boiling water to produce mechanical motion, though this toy, the aeolipile, was never used practically.

80 BCE: But now let’s jump through times and through the centuries until the year when L. Cornelius Sulla and Q. Caecilius Metellus were Consuls of Rome. In this year, a boy was born in Mytelene on the island of Lesbos – his father, a known architect, discovered his technical talent and wanted him to study the science and mechanics. Likewise, his father was the one who taught him that every item should have a practical utility.

63 BCE: When Cassandros of Mytilene, that is the name he was given by posterior historiographers, became 17 years old, he went to Alexandria and begun to study the writings of the old philosophers – especially of Ctesibius of Alexandria and Philo of Byzantium. He is deeply impressed by their virtuosity, but since he criticizes the lack of practical relevance of their devices, he is censured by the eldest of the Musaeum.

56 BCE: After seven years of studies, the death of his father forces Cassandros to work as precision engineer and later scheduler at shipyards and for instrument makers. Working hard and using his short leisure to upgrade bilge pumps and the tightness of their cylinders, he acquires the reputation of a skilled constructor of water-moving devices.
 
Well, seems logical that Hellenistic Egypt would be the most suitable place in the Mediterranean basin to avviate a process of industrialization. Probably too late to save Tolemaic Egypt, but more than useful at the arrival of the Romans.
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Well, seems logical that Hellenistic Egypt would be the most suitable place in the Mediterranean basin to avviate a process of industrialization. Probably too late to save Tolemaic Egypt, but more than useful at the arrival of the Romans.

Were useful. No, Ptolemaic Egypt is doomed, but the knowledge of Alexandria will be helpful to understand some basic processes.
 
Roman metallurgy relied mainly on iron age techniques and thus wasn’t very elaborated – though, claiming that an ancient industrialization would inevitably founder on the lack of appropriate metallurgy is as shortsighted as saying that 15th century Europe couldn’t use gunpowder because of its rather primitive knowledge of how to treat iron to construct artillery. The opposite is true: once the principle and the value of a machine is recognized, progress in other areas (like metallurgy or theoretic physics) will be encouraged by the will to perfect the apparatus.
Thats not really true though.
IOTL it was developments in steel making that meant steam engines- a pretty simple and not at all unknown theoretical concept- a far more useful and practical concept.
Though it is big flashy machinery that gets all the attention it was rather more simple and unglamorous things like steel that made the industrial revolution possible.
To get early industrial age technology in use (a proper industrial revolution is a bit impossible) it is this you will need to speed up.
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Thats not really true though.Though it is big flashy machinery that gets all the attention it was rather more simple and unglamorous things like steel that made the industrial revolution possible.

True. Along with economic and demographic factors and, not forgetting, the rise of capitalism.
Though, history isn't repetitive and can make one or two detours before arriving at its end. You may acknowledge that Rome has, like 17th century Britain, some advantages making some developments not predetermined, but quite likely.

Also, don't think that I will completly ommit the development of steel and better boilers.
 
Developing better steel production techniques doesn`t sound like something Romans would not be interested in. It is linked to successful warfare, after all.
 
Interesting.

When I hear of Roman industrialization themes, I still thinks of this anecdot (I don't remeber where I've got it) on an engineer visiting Vespasian (I believe) to propose machines to speed up works with less labour force needed and less costs, but the Emperor refused on grounds of that disrupting the slave labor based economy of Rome.

EDIT: I just found the source of this anecdot.

To a mechanical engineer, who promised to transport some heavy columns to the Capitol at small expense, he gave no mean reward for his invention, but refused to make use of it, saying: "You must let me feed my poor commons.
Suetonius, Life of Vespasian 18
 
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Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
#2: Serving the Caesar


Thanks you!:) Didn't know this story.

Very interesting anecdot (I should have time to read more of Suetonius). Though, this anecdot reveals something else - neither technology nor slave labor was the real problem with mechanization, but mentality. You have to change the conservative mindset of the Romans, if not of the common Roman, then at least of the ruling class (emperor, rich senators, land and mine owners etc.)
And this is my plan: through a minor POD (insert a specialist of pumps, water and air into the Roman world, who will make, with little means, a really important discovery) make the Romans start to promote science and to use new technology. The technology was there - a primitive steam turbine, water mills, glas, coal... - they just never made use of it.

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Serving the Caesar
48
- 44

48 BCE: Because of his high distinction and despite his young age, Cassander is recommended to Gaius Iulius Caesar, searching for a specialist of pumps and dewatering – the Roman general appoints him technical director of the Hispanic mines captured by whose legions in the last campaign.
Cassander spends three years in Hispania, where he tries to increase the mines’ production significantly. However, water is entering the mine in great quantities since an earthquake occurred, and drainage is nearly impossible and, due to the costs of slaves and animals, very expensive. An extension of the mine demanded by the authorities is much to costly, since the price of the needed slaves would be higher than the calculated output of the mine. The constructor’s mind commences to think of mechanical solution to the problem.

45 BCE: Cassander gives up his work for the mines and spends his time on thinking and observing the nature – after the optimates rebel again in Hispania, the Greek constructor flees the war and quits Iberia. After having returned to Alexandria, he uses his savings to open a little workshop producing various medical, scientific and religious instruments. Being forced to mend wages, he designs siege engines and ship technology for the Egyptian navy.

44 BCE: Caesar, preparing to leave for his eastern campaign, is poisoned on his last banquet in Rome. Mark Antony assumes dictatorial power and establishes a reign of terror, persecuting both the liberatores and the supporters of Caesar’s heir Gaius Octavius. Meanwhile, Cleopatra decides to protect her Empire against these turmoil and orders an ambitious program of armament and modernization. Cassander is appointed deputy chief of the shipyards.
Alongside his day work, he dedicates himself fanatically to the question how to actuate a water pump without using muscle power...

 
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Developing better steel production techniques doesn`t sound like something Romans would not be interested in. It is linked to successful warfare, after all.


This doesn't seem to be the case:

Evidence of the earliest production of high carbon steel in the Indian Subcontinent are found in Kodumanal in Tamil Nadu area, Golconda in Andhra Pradesh area and Karnataka, and in Samanalawewa areas of Sri Lanka.This came to be known as Wootz steel, produced in South India by about sixth century BC and exported globally.The steel technology existed prior to 326 BC in the region as they are mentioned in literature of Sangam Tamil, Arabic and Latin as the finest steel in the world exported to the Romans, Egyptian, Chinese and Arabs worlds at that time - what they called Seric Iron
Wikipedia: Steel, Wootz Steel

Another interesting source of very ancient steel were the Haya in Africa:

One of the oldest and most sophisticated methods was that of the Haya people. They're an African tribe in what is Tanzania today. The Hayas produced high-grade carbon steel for about 2000 years.
The Hayas made their steel in a kiln shaped like a truncated upside-down cone about five feet high. They made both the cone and the bed below it from the clay of termite mounds. Termite clay makes a fine refractory material. The Hayas filled the bed of the kiln with charred swamp reeds. They packed a mixture of charcoal and iron ore above the charred reeds. Before they loaded iron ore into the kiln, they roasted it to raise its carbon content.
The key to the Haya iron process was a high operating temperature. Eight men, seated around the base of the kiln, pumped air in with hand bellows. The air flowed through the fire in clay conduits. Then the heated air blasted into the charcoal fire itself. The result was a far hotter process than anything known in Europe before modern times.
Link for Haya Steel

So there is a chance/there are avenues for rome to either develop steel themselves or learn the method of steel making from others.

There is also always the option of an evolution from the fire piston to the stirling engine. Its a bit more straight foreward than the aeopile-steam engine transition and also works with lower temperatures/inferior metals.
 
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Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
#3: Discovering the void

No one there to comment my stuff? meh

Maybe I should reveal some of the technological parts....


Oh, excellent. This proves that ancient world is capable of something very close to steel, and will be able to produce real steel soon.

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Discovering the void
43- 41

43 BCE: The Roman world is divided into two parts, since Mark Antony governs the west as new dictator while Octavius, cheated out of his heritage, commands the eastern caesarian legions. Under his protection, Cassius, Brutus and Cicero are blustering about the restoration of the republic, just like Sextus Pompeius, who, dreaming of a new thalassocracy on Sicily, merges his forces with the Octavian faction.
Octavius, preparing to defend against the legions of Mark Antony and his minion Lepidus, orders the Roman client kings to supply them with soldiers and ships – reluctantly, Cleopatra sends a squadroon and her “best engineer”. The commanders of the octavian fleet, Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa (Octavius lieutenant) and Sextus Pompeius, recognize Cassander’s talent and with the latter’s help achieve to build and repair a new fleet in some hundreds day. Though, it’s to late to prevent Mark Antony’s crossing of the Adriatic sea.

42 BCE: At Philippi, the octavian legions triumph narrowly over Antony – victory was secured by Lepidus changing sides to save his life and position, whereupon Mark Antony committed suicide. Admittedly, the unity of the octavians was threatened by an argument between the followers of Octavius and Cassius erupting after the battle. However, Cicero plays the role of an arbiter and proposes to form a Second Triumvirate, comprising him, Octavius and Cassius and commissioned to find a comprise between the factions.

41 BCE: The legions of the republic are fiercely welcomed in Rome and behind the scenes, the new political order is negotiated – Cassander, though having become Roman citizen and quite rich after Philippi, is naturally excluded from any important discussion, thus having more time to resume the experiments he had to interrupt for nearly four years.
Having taken with him his Alexandrian tools and books and bought a decent workshop, he starts to test different energy sources for their utility. Of all forces of nature he knows (earth, fire, air and water), air seems to be the sole capable of helping him to move a human mechanism – and of the different “kinds” of air available to him, steam is the only one he can access when he wants to (because wind depends on the capriciousness of nature[1]).
He first tries to use the aeolipile designed by Ctesibios, but realized that it is much to wasteful – nobody would buy a machine consuming more energy than animals or slaves capable of the same task. Then, he modifies the aeolipile by using an immobile sphere out of which steam emerges through a pipe at the top, from where it is directed at a water wheel[2]. Again, the engine is not powerful enough to generate enough energy without needing a gigantic amount of expensive combustible.
In a third experiment, seeking to use all of the steam, he wants to shield that too much steam escapes; therefore, he attempts to confine the steam into a cylinders similar to these used for piston pumps. The legend relates that he had decisive idea in November of the same year: he fills the cylinder partially with water and, being distracted by a late visitor, puts it on a hot hearth. The water becomes warm, eventually vaporizes and pushes the piston slightly up; Cassander, fearing the explosion of the cylinder, throws it violently into cold water[3], in which the piston instantly returns in its initial position.
Having discovered the right disposal of the different elements needed for the engine, Cassander manages to improve his accidental experiment and, using a windlass, to lift a weight of 100 librae[4] by using the power vacuum and overpressure[5], without precisely knowing what actually happens inside of the cylinder.
Thinking of how this can be used to induce a regularly movement of a pump, he used the next months to draw up drafts for an engine he was convinced to be a new climax of human progress...

[1] Though, wind power spread widely in the Parthian Empire, having neither wood nor coal, some decades later.
[2] Like this one.
[3] Yes, this isn’t the best thing to do with hot things, but Cassander didn’t took the time to think about it.
[4] Roughly 30 kg
[5] See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Papin
 
Caesar will turn upside down in his grave.

But I think you have to explain how Mark Antony managed to oust Octavian from his rights and how Octavian decided to ally with the assassins of Caesar. The eastern Caesarian legions would have never accepted that, preferring to side with Antony then.
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Caesar will turn upside down in his grave.

But I think you have to explain how Mark Antony managed to oust Octavian from his rights and how Octavian decided to ally with the assassins of Caesar. The eastern Caesarian legions would have never accepted that, preferring to side with Antony then.

Caesar's open assasination was butterflied away, and the assasins had to do it with poison. Now, there was no open republican movement in Rome, and Mark Antony could crack down on everyone he thought being involved in the plot (his enemies) without knowing who the murderers are. Through luck, some conspirators (Cassius, Brutus, Cicero) managed to escape - they were to powerful to be arrested directly.

Mark Antony simply pretended to be the leader of the caesarian faction, using his popularity with the legions habing known Caesar and him, but ignoring Octavius. Also, nobody can force him to turn Caesar's money over to Octavius.

As to the eastern legions, they know Octavius very well and trusted him then he claimed to be the legal heir of the dictator perpetuus.

In fact, nobody in this TL really knows who is now Caesar's successor and the question was solved by war.
 
Can you explain why Cicero was willing to go along with a triumvirate? It seems a bit out of character.
 
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