Alternate Republic of China Air Force- ideas and discussion

Greetings to all my loyal readers.

After finishing my thread about alternate RoC Navy, it is now time to write something about RoC Air Force.
It is settled in alternate world where with big US support for Nationalist Government in China during the Civil war, they don't loose the war, but don't win it either. After 1948, the front lines are stabilised ( like in OTL Korean Peninsula ) so that Beijing and Manchuria are under PRC/Communist rule while the rest of China is under Kuomintang rule.

Link for the map:

http://www.dumpt.com/img/viewer.php?file=dz9i0zogf4uhw6y2upyv.png


Also, here's a link for RoC Navy thread:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=333624

They would need a large, modern Air Force. And that would start with license production of the F-86 Sabre--building over 600 of them.

By the 1960's, they get a large fleet of F-4 Phantom II's--so much so that it is licensed-built in the RoC. And by the early 1980's, supplanted by the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon, also license-built in the RoC. Or they choose the Mirage III in the early 1960's, supplanted by the Mirage F-1 in the early 1970's, and supplanted by the Mirage 2000 in the middle 1980's, and supplanted by the Rafale by 2005.

As for ground attack, I would not be surprised the RoC buys the F-111, probably something akin to the FB-111A but with the electronics of the F-111E originally, but later with Chinese-built avionics to upgrade it to something akin to the F-111F level. The planes will be constantly modernized with upgraded engines and newer avionics and are still in service in ATL 2015. Or there's this possibility: the RoC bails out the British Aircraft Corporation and orders the TSR.2 for the RoC Air Force as their medium to long range interdiction plane, and ends up license-building it in RoC, originally with the Rolls-Royce Olympus 320 turbojet but later with a special version of the GE F101 turbofan. And it would still be in service today, thanks to constant avionics upgrades.

Cool. . Well to start off, it is certain that the RoCAF would be the beneficiary of ex USAAF Equipment such as P 40, P 47, P 51s for Fighter bombers. A 20, A 26s for light bombers. And probably a few B 25s. Plenty of C 47s to go around as well. I would imagine piper cubs, and T 6s for light aircraft and training. Until the Soviet Union starts supplying more advanced AC to the PRC, I'm not seeing Truman allowing sales of more advanced equipment, besides Chiang has a lot of internal fence mending to do. Is this the same time line as your last thread? Or an alternate of your alternative history.

100Fathoms said:

Cool. . Well to start off, it is certain that the RoCAF would be the beneficiary of ex USAAF Equipment such as P 40, P 47, P 51s for Fighter bombers. A 20, A 26s for light bombers. And probably a few B 25s. Plenty of C 47s to go around as well. I would imagine piper cubs, and T 6s for light aircraft and training. Until the Soviet Union starts supplying more advanced AC to the PRC, I'm not seeing Truman allowing sales of more advanced equipment, besides Chiang has a lot of internal fence mending to do. Is this the same time line as your last thread? Or an alternate of your alternative history.

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Yes, this is the same TL as last thread. And yes, I agree that China will first operate older US hand-me-down aircrafts. At first, there will be no need for something much better and China has to first make the ground work for later expansion...

SactoMan101 said:

They would need a large, modern Air Force. And that would start with license production of the F-86 Sabre--building over 600 of them.

By the 1960's, they get a large fleet of F-4 Phantom II's--so much so that it is licensed-built in the RoC. And by the early 1980's, supplanted by the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon, also license-built in the RoC. Or they choose the Mirage III in the early 1960's, supplanted by the Mirage F-1 in the early 1970's, and supplanted by the Mirage 2000 in the middle 1980's, and supplanted by the Rafale by 2005.

As for ground attack, I would not be surprised the RoC buys the F-111, probably something akin to the FB-111A but with the electronics of the F-111E originally, but later with Chinese-built avionics to upgrade it to something akin to the F-111F level. The planes will be constantly modernized with upgraded engines and newer avionics and are still in service in ATL 2015. Or there's this possibility: the RoC bails out the British Aircraft Corporation and orders the TSR.2 for the RoC Air Force as their medium to long range interdiction plane, and ends up license-building it in RoC, originally with the Rolls-Royce Olympus 320 turbojet but later with a special version of the GE F101 turbofan. And it would still be in service today, thanks to constant avionics upgrades.

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About Sabres, China will buy Sabre, but license production will have to wait until aircraft production industry is established and that will take time. But, later they will build aircrafts under license. Also, they will try to build their own aircrafts as soon as possible. But some of these things are allready covered in my RoC Navy TL, so check it out there...

Bear with me now, the F-104 would be an excellent aircraft for the ROC; it's cheap and easy to build, has insane flight performance for the time, has commonality with the F-4 Phantom, and upgrades and follow on variants (CL-1200) could be bought and built exclusively by the ROC providing a good export fighter to friendly countries and a significant contribution to their local aviation industry. The ROC would also have industry, good weather, and a large pool of well trained pilots and technicians, all things the Germans lacked at the time and contributed to it's high accident rate.

The F-4 Phantom is another obvious choice and would compliment the F-104 in the ROCAF's hi-low mix. Historically Japan was the first and only nation to build the F-4 under license, maybe this time it could be China. With upgrades they along with the F-104 would be able to serve into the late 1980s before needing replacements.

Have Blue-117 said:

Bear with me now, the F-104 would be an excellent aircraft for the ROC; it's cheap and easy to build, has insane flight performance for the time, has commonality with the F-4 Phantom, and upgrades and follow on variants (CL-1200) could be bought and built exclusively by the ROC providing a good export fighter to friendly countries and a significant contribution to their local aviation industry. The ROC would also have industry, good weather, and a large pool of well trained pilots and technicians, all things the Germans lacked at the time and contributed to it's high accident rate.

The F-4 Phantom is another obvious choice and would compliment the F-104 in the ROCAF's hi-low mix. Historically Japan was the first and only nation to build the F-4 under license, maybe this time it could be China. With upgrades they along with the F-104 would be able to serve into the late 1980s before needing replacements.

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Interesting ideas. But what do you think about F-5 Freedom Fighter? Overlapping with F-104 or?

I think given the issues of how dangerous flying the F-104 was, the RoC Air Force in ATL would have chosen the F-4 Phantom II as their primary interceptor, especially flying in western China with its vast tracts of desert. And the RoC AF would keep a good number of them based in western China to protect against the ever-present Soviet threat.

Yes I would stay away from the F-104. It was not a well regarded aircraft. Luftwaffe pilots called it the widow maker. The USAF phased it out as did a lot of allied air forces.. I would think that the ROC would first go with the F-86 and then transition to the F-100 Super Sabre. They did buy both aircraft in OTL. The F-100 remained operational in the ROCAF for a long time. I think that the F-5 would be an excellent aircraft to buy. It is rugged and quite capable of upgrades. Also the ROC could probably produce it.
Currently the government of Iran is producing an upgrade of the F-5 using Russian assistance.

IIRC USAF had no major problems ( fatalities & accidents ) with the F-104?

I believe it was a good interceptor and good at high altitude. It was developed for the Air Defense Command to be used against soviet bombers. But germany also used it as a strike aircraft and at low altitude. If the PRC has a significant bomber force it may a good choice, if not, not so much.

abc123 said:

IIRC USAF had no major problems ( fatalities & accidents ) with the F-104?

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It's complicated.

First, the yanks mainly used the F-104 as a Fighter/Interceptor, while the Europeans mainly used it as a strike aircraft. Shit goes wrong at altitude (say, during fighter operations) and you can punch out or retrieve the situation successfully; shit goes wrong near the ground and it's crash-splat-bang or punch out (and given the downwards firing ejector seat in early F-104s or non Zero-Zero seat in later models, that's also often a crash-splat-bang...). Given the difference in missions the American experience skews towards the former while, say, the German experience skews towards the latter... with resulting effects on perception ("It's a good but sometime difficult bird to fly" vs "Do you have a death wish?").

Second, the F-104 had a relatively short service life with the Americans (11 year in front line service plus another 6 in limited use with the ANG), while the type remained in operational service with Germany for 27 years. Longer service life equals more time for crashes.

Third, the accident rate while bad wasn't actually that bad compared to it's immediate predecessors and contemplates. The Germans lost 30% of their 916 F-104s over 27 years. The Canadians lost 110 Starfighters (~50% of the fleet) over 20 years, but they lost 282 F-86s in a 12 year period. By way of comparison with other types of the same era, Australia lost 43 of it's 116 Mirage IIIs (so 35ish%) over 24 years.

Interesting informations. Thanks.
Well I was thinking to use F-104 as fighter/interceptor in RoCAF while say F-5 could be used as more strike aircraft... Sounds fine?

OK, time for first update.

RoC Air Force: 1945- 1948

With the end of Second World War and beginning of Chinese Civil War, the United States decided to give extensive support to the small Republic of China Air Force.

United States now had gigantic numbers of aircrafts that were used in war and now were not longer needed. China, on the other hand, had very small number of modern aircrafts. So, United States decided to give many of them to China.

But, one thing had priority- training new pilots. No use of new planes when you don't have good pilots to fly them. So, United States and China decided to solve that problem by founding six Flying Schools: in Hefei, Suzhou, Ningbo, Wengzhou, Guangdong and Changsha.

As instructors, they decided to try to keep former Flying Tigers, by offering them good salary. US Army Air Forces also sent a big number of their demilitarised ( and active ) pilots and aircraft technicians to help establishing these schools.

Also, planes were needed. So USAAF decided to send them big number of Piper Cubs and T-6 Texans to be used for initial flying training. More than 100 of each were initially sent. In later years, RoCAf obtained 200 more of each.



Piper Cub



They will be used for initial flying training for new pilots. Chinese, on the other hand, made a selection of future cadets and built a infrastructure.

For existing pilots, that mostly flew on aircrafts that were not modern even in 1939, new aircrafts were necesarry. So, USAAF sent them large numbers of Curtiss P-40 Warhawk ( about 100 of them initially ), Republic P-47 Thunderbolts ( 100 of them ), North American P-51B Mustang ( about 200 of them initially ), Douglas A-20 Havoc ( about 100 of them ), North American B-25 Mitchell ( 100 of them ), Consolidated B-24 Liberator ( 48 of them ) and for transport, about 100 Douglas C-47 Skytrain.



P-40 Warhawk



P-51 Mustang



P-47 Thunderbolt



A-20 Havoc



B-25 Mitchell



B-24 Liberator



C-47 Skytrain

During 1947 and 1948, as training progressed and larger number of trained pilots became available, USAAF sold to China, ( for nominal prices, about 1000 USD for single aircraft ) additional numbers of these aircrafts. That brought numbers of these aircrafts in RoCAF service on about 400 each, with about 300 B-25s and 100 B-24. All of them were not yet used because of lack of trained pilots, but were bought anyway, to be used later when pilots became available or as attrition or combat loss replacements.

Meanwhile, construction of airfields was under way, especially near of what it will later become the Inter-Chinese border, near Manchuria.

Chinese Civil War finished in late 1948, with signing the Treaty of Ulan Bator. After Soviet Union threatned to activly intervene on side of CCP ( that had power in Manchuria and Beijing ). USA were supporting the RoC. They even sent a squadron ot their nuclear bombers B-29 on Okinawa to remind Soviets that they still have a nuclear monopolly. China needed peace to consolidate.

By the Treaty, both sides basicly kept what they had at the moment, agreed to exchange prisoners of war and to respect demilitarized zone between them observed by foreign observers from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Ireland and Switzerland.



Chinese Demilitarised Zone near Beijing

If you guys want there are some good threads on F-16.net about the F-104 that provide a lot of great information about the type and it's capabilities, faults, etc. I understand you have concerns about the aircraft but used properly it is an excellent fighter and interceptor, it was even good at low level provided that the weather was good (high wing loading made it incredibly smooth down low, very fast to boot). The F-104 was clearly too much for the Germans but for the ROC it would be fine, they loved them OTL.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=553

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=995

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?105150-F-4-vs-F-104

Yeah for a pure AD interceptor, the Starfighter is fine. When you try to make it into something it's not is when you get in trouble. Lockheed used to brag that the F 104 was a manned missile due to the fast rate of climb. I think it helps to consider it an SAM that can land and re-sortie. It also has some demanding maintenance and ground handling issues. But then so does the rest of the Century series Fighters. Another fighter you may consider, the F 101 Voodoo. Had a very successful career in the USAF, and the RCAF. Long ranged, fast on the deck, and multi mission capable, and it's the ancestor of the ubiquitous Phantom in all it's cold war glory.

100Fathoms said:

Yeah for a pure AD interceptor, the Starfighter is fine. When you try to make it into something it's not is when you get in trouble. Lockheed used to brag that the F 104 was a manned missile due to the fast rate of climb. I think it helps to consider it an SAM that can land and re-sortie. It also has some demanding maintenance and ground handling issues. But then so does the rest of the Century series Fighters. Another fighter you may consider, the F 101 Voodoo. Had a very successful career in the USAF, and the RCAF. Long ranged, fast on the deck, and multi mission capable, and it's the ancestor of the ubiquitous Phantom in all it's cold war glory.

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I agree. About Voodoo, they used it IOTL, so I think that it could be used ITTL as well.

Another aircraft that might be considered is the Republic F-105. It was one of the most respected aircraft of the Vietnam War. It was not only a fighter but could be used as a strike aircraft.

chris N said:

Another aircraft that might be considered is the Republic F-105. It was one of the most respected aircraft of the Vietnam War. It was not only a fighter but could be used as a strike aircraft.

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I think that China will be mostly interested in two things:

a) cost ( they need big number of fighters, so cost is important )

b) possibility of license production in China ( as a way to reduce costs and return part of money back to China )

And it seems that the Phantom was cheaper, around 1,7 mil. USD per piece vs 2,3 mil. USD per piece... That's for D-variants of both.

About F-104 and it's accidents record: we have to keep in our head that decisionmakers in RoCAF in late 50s-early 60s could not know that. So, they could not make the same decisions we would... Hindsight is allways 20/20.