What would the Romans do if Carthage settled the Canaries and Cape Verde?
- Thread starter Richard V
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They wouldn't care, or they wouldn't know. There's no good reason for the Romans to flush out every Phoenician from The Azores to Canaan, "Carthage must be destroyed", well Carthage was destroyed along with any hope for Rome to be challenged in the Western Mediterranean or for the Carthaginians to reclaim their city with an oxhide and a sexy queen. Any remnants in Cape Verde, The Canaries or Gold Coast for all they care will be a non-issue. The grudge was against the state of Carthage, it was a bloody grudge but once the city was Roman, no sense in going to the ends of the Earth.
Quite literally the edge of the Earth for them, could you imagine attempting to go looking for islands outside the Mediterranean? Insane, the Romans would probably call the Carthaginians damned, seeing as they exist beyond the realm of civilization.
Quite literally the edge of the Earth for them, could you imagine attempting to go looking for islands outside the Mediterranean? Insane, the Romans would probably call the Carthaginians damned, seeing as they exist beyond the realm of civilization.
If you have a POD where Hamilcar Barca, shamed by his loss in the First Punic War, and in 246, takes his wife and three young sons to the Canary Islands, where they landed on the first purple islands, setting up a small trading harbour, there for themselves.
Over time the traders decide to join them and before too long the small harbour becomes a settlement and is named "Barcalona."
His eldest son, Hannibal became a naval commander and in the future is generally considered one of the greatest naval commanders in history.
Over time the traders decide to join them and before too long the small harbour becomes a settlement and is named "Barcalona."
His eldest son, Hannibal became a naval commander and in the future is generally considered one of the greatest naval commanders in history.
abc123
Banned
And there Carthaginians make better ships and find the new World about 1000 years before Columbus and claim whole America for themselves?
Inevitable but given the distance, loosely. I think the Romans would settle for tapping into the trade network.
The colonies, if long lasting, might offer some interesting effects in West Africa, in the areas of tech and metallurgy. I also see an increased chance of accidental one-way discoveries of the Americas but not necessarily ones in which the sailors get back home. Unless over time these colonies develop their tech kits more for real blue water ventures.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Who's to say that those distant Carthaginian colonies wouldn't switch sides during the Second or Third Punic Wars? Why try to bail out a city that was doomed to be destroyed by the Romans and save face before the same fate befalls them? Not that Rome would bother sending a fleet to the Atlantic.
Funnily enough, this is a scenario I'm exploring, although with a slightly later PoD. I've commented on it here, but the short version is that a Carthaginian colony in the Canaries starts to trade with Britain, leading to an accidental discovery of the New World.
Unfortunately, I haven't quite found a way to make it plausible. I'm still looking at it. If I can figure something out, I'll probably TLIAM it.
Weren't the Isles of the Blessed supposed to be in that general area? So maybe not so damned after all.
As for the OP, I don't think that Rome would feel the need to stamp out every Carthaginian colony just for revenge or to safeguard their position in the Mediterranean, since even a well-wanked Canary Islands won't be able to pose much of a threat to the Roman Republic as it stood by 146 BC. That said, if the area gets rich enough through trade, we might see the Romans sending a fleet over to try and take the land for themselves.
Or just signing a trade deal with them...Weren't the Isles of the Blessed supposed to be in that general area? So maybe not so damned after all.
As for the OP, I don't think that Rome would feel the need to stamp out every Carthaginian colony just for revenge or to safeguard their position in the Mediterranean, since even a well-wanked Canary Islands won't be able to pose much of a threat to the Roman Republic as it stood by 146 BC. That said, if the area gets rich enough through trade, we might see the Romans sending a fleet over to try and take the land for themselves.
I had it in my head that Hannibal would trade with the Western African tribes creating an earlier Timbuktu and Ghana Empire which would create a more civilised West Africa, who are able to compete with Europe.
A plausible way is to have a couple of Carthaginian ships loaded with supplies, men and women planning to trade and set up a small community in Britain caught in the Canaries Current that takes their advance ships to the Mexican Gulf, where they are stranded and have to make a colony before traveling back to inform Europe of their find
Perhaps, although given the Romans' general fondness for invading places I'd expect to see them starting at least one war.
Yeah, but when it came to small commercial states (see: Rhodes) the Romans were fine with just letting them be as long as they cooperated. Plus it's so far out of their way to be pointless to invade.
It's not ASB-level impossible, but it does require rolling rather a lot of double-sixes. First some Carthaginians need to decide to run to the far end of the world in the first place. Then their colony needs to succeed, which is hardly impossible, but by no means guaranteed. Then they need to further develop the navigational tech to get directly to Britain. Then a storm needs to hit which is just strong enough to blow them so far out to sea that they can't come back, but not so strong that it wrecks too many ships. Then they need to survive the voyage, make appropriate contact with the locals, then work out how to make the equally dangerous journey back.
None of this is impossible in itself, but it does require a lot of luck. I'm still looking for ways to cut down on the necessary luck.
I don't know if a colony in the Canarias would really have a large enough population to really push forward such innovation so quickly, and another issue is that's unlikely for the Romans to all be Catos and refuse the Carthaginians land access, especially when they're such an insignificant colony.
What might cause such far flung Carthaginian colonies to more or less wither on the vine would be lack of free access to Mediterranean markets which would make these colonies utterly dependent on Roman good will. The only other choices for these colonies are to Africanize -- to essentially throw in their lot with their W. African customers and likely quickly be culturally absorbed.