I have always considered the Me - 163 Comet to represent a misallocation of funds and materials. However, was there any way for either the Me - 163 / J8M to have extracted a greater toll against the Allied bomber formations?
Me 163
- Thread starter La Rouge Beret
- Start date
Pangur
Donor
Most likely not with changing the design to the point where it is a totally different a/c - it was too small IMHO.
What may be worth looking at is if the Me163 was seen a stop gap to a larger a/c with the bugs worked out
I started looking at the Me 263 as well.
The reason I ask is that I am going to use the basic design for an ASB TL I am drafting.
The reason I ask is that I am going to use the basic design for an ASB TL I am drafting.
OTL the use of a liquid-fueled rocket engine, along with the small airframe, meant that the Me163 had too short a range to be useful. Add to that the lack of proper landing gear and the type is virtually a disposable point-defense fighter, which is a waste of resources. So what can we do to make a useful fighter out of the Me163?
1. Enlarge it. As is it cannot carry enough fuel to travel more than a few km from its base or enough ammo to fire for more than a few seconds. Scale up the airframe to roughly the size of the Me262 and now you can make something useful.
2. Replace the rocket engine with a single jet engine and auxiliary rocket engines; use the rockets to quickly climb to altitude and accelerate to cruising speed, then jettison them and run on the jet engine.
3. Provide proper landing gear, radar, and a reasonable fuel and ammo capacity to enable it to be effective in finding and engaging enemies either on its own or in cooperation with other fighters.
That said, the main failing is not the aircraft itself; it's the almost complete lack of trained fighter pilots at this stage of the war. The Luftwaffe's prewar training programs will need to be vastly increased if they are to have any chance of fielding the numbers of pilots they will need in the later stages of the war. Unless this is done, it won't matter what aircraft they field; there will not be anyone capable of flying them.
1. Enlarge it. As is it cannot carry enough fuel to travel more than a few km from its base or enough ammo to fire for more than a few seconds. Scale up the airframe to roughly the size of the Me262 and now you can make something useful.
2. Replace the rocket engine with a single jet engine and auxiliary rocket engines; use the rockets to quickly climb to altitude and accelerate to cruising speed, then jettison them and run on the jet engine.
3. Provide proper landing gear, radar, and a reasonable fuel and ammo capacity to enable it to be effective in finding and engaging enemies either on its own or in cooperation with other fighters.
That said, the main failing is not the aircraft itself; it's the almost complete lack of trained fighter pilots at this stage of the war. The Luftwaffe's prewar training programs will need to be vastly increased if they are to have any chance of fielding the numbers of pilots they will need in the later stages of the war. Unless this is done, it won't matter what aircraft they field; there will not be anyone capable of flying them.
Yeah I was thinking about that as well, having the proper pilots in order to use the aircraft effectively is the question.
thaddeus
Donor
vote for the mixed propulsion idea also, but would suggest using a small propeller engine to land aircraft and taxi around the field.
(an Argus engine was used in the forerunner DFS-40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFS_40)
having a conventional engine would also allow the Komet to fly under its own power from base to base instead of requiring a tug aircraft (of course landing gear was needed with or without mixed propulsion.)
saw one version equipped with R4M rockets, seems like the most logical weapon for them to have carried?
(an Argus engine was used in the forerunner DFS-40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFS_40)
having a conventional engine would also allow the Komet to fly under its own power from base to base instead of requiring a tug aircraft (of course landing gear was needed with or without mixed propulsion.)
saw one version equipped with R4M rockets, seems like the most logical weapon for them to have carried?
marathag
Banned
Hypergolic propellants and manned aircraft isn't a great idea, no matter that it allows a really light weight package.
Then compound that with an armament package: a slow firing, low velocity cannon that would have needed a computerized, predicting gunsight to be effective.
Better to have spent the effort on Surface to Air Missiles, than a ludicrous way to dissolve pilots with a mix of H2O2, Methanol and Hydrazine
Then compound that with an armament package: a slow firing, low velocity cannon that would have needed a computerized, predicting gunsight to be effective.
Better to have spent the effort on Surface to Air Missiles, than a ludicrous way to dissolve pilots with a mix of H2O2, Methanol and Hydrazine
marathag
Banned
It was to be a fast climbing interceptor, so no, but a small engine for cruise would have probably be worth the weight penalty to have replaced the tiny windmill generator on the nose with a 20HP motor
The Me 163 was a rocket propelled Glider
it could climb incredible fast but during attacks and landing it's a glider
also it use a Walter HWK 109-509A-2 liquid-fuel rocket using Toxic hydrazine hydrate mixture and hydrogen peroxide
that engine had tendency to barbecue the Pilot and it's fuels killing sometimes ground personnel.
Messerschmitt was planning a advance version Me 263
it feature bigger fuselage, a twin rocket engine one for take off one for power flight of 15 minutes (the double of M 163 with 7 minute)
Do problem with Me 262 production, the Me 263 end up at Junkers-Werke under designation Ju 248
So alternative ?
Yes, It's designer Alexander Lippisch proposed in 1941, to put a Jet engine under Me 163, this was rejected by the Reich Air Ministry (RAM)
Not to endanger the Me 262 program and problem that German Jet Engine were untrustworthy for single engine Aircraft
Irony the RAM order in 1944, that kind of Airplane: the Heinkel He 162 (build from glued wood )
next to that Junker was working also on Interceptor Junkers EF 126
a minium program fighter that used a pulse jet engine.
Last attempt was this insanity: Bachem-349 NATTER
A manned surface-to-air missile build from glued wood and Walter HWK engine + 4 solid rockets
it got only 24 Hs 297 rocket shells
after mission the Ba-349 disjointed it self and parts + Pilot lands with parachute are collected and parts put together.
the first prototype launch killed the pilot.
it could climb incredible fast but during attacks and landing it's a glider
also it use a Walter HWK 109-509A-2 liquid-fuel rocket using Toxic hydrazine hydrate mixture and hydrogen peroxide
that engine had tendency to barbecue the Pilot and it's fuels killing sometimes ground personnel.
Messerschmitt was planning a advance version Me 263
it feature bigger fuselage, a twin rocket engine one for take off one for power flight of 15 minutes (the double of M 163 with 7 minute)
Do problem with Me 262 production, the Me 263 end up at Junkers-Werke under designation Ju 248
So alternative ?
Yes, It's designer Alexander Lippisch proposed in 1941, to put a Jet engine under Me 163, this was rejected by the Reich Air Ministry (RAM)
Not to endanger the Me 262 program and problem that German Jet Engine were untrustworthy for single engine Aircraft
Irony the RAM order in 1944, that kind of Airplane: the Heinkel He 162 (build from glued wood )
next to that Junker was working also on Interceptor Junkers EF 126
a minium program fighter that used a pulse jet engine.
Last attempt was this insanity: Bachem-349 NATTER
A manned surface-to-air missile build from glued wood and Walter HWK engine + 4 solid rockets
it got only 24 Hs 297 rocket shells
after mission the Ba-349 disjointed it self and parts + Pilot lands with parachute are collected and parts put together.
the first prototype launch killed the pilot.
thaddeus
Donor
the forerunner DFS-40 had a small Argus engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFS_40 stated as being a 100hp engine
my assumption would be it could power a Komet, without the rocket fuel of course, from point A to point B? would not have to be towed from landing strip and also from base to base?
I have always considered the Me - 163 Comet to represent a misallocation of funds and materials. However, was there any way for either the Me - 163 / J8M to have extracted a greater toll against the Allied bomber formations?
To be honest - while its an uncool answer I agree with your original assertion in that the resources used building 300 of these ME163s would have been best spent elsewhere.
What ever the aircraft delivered was it was always going to be constrained by fuel shortages.
300 FW190s very probably would have achieved more!
So no I don't believe that much could have been done to improve its performance vs the allied air formations.
thaddeus
Donor
there was a plan to equip ME-262 jets with rockets (presume for faster takeoff?)
and some discussion to equip piston engine craft with rockets (read it to mean NOT jettisoned rockets but ones that could be fired intermittently)
no figures on the performance expected, "standard" Bf-109 rated at nearly 400 mph and a ME-163 rated at nearly 600 mph (?)
some of the Bf-109s with fuel boosters were already faster? so with even a smaller version of the Walters rocket added? ... FAST!
probably a better use of resources than the Komet or frankly than the jet program.
Is there a way to improve the fuel mixture, also a question for our resident Chemist on the board. Were there any other cannons that would better suit the platform's mission, i.e. a fast firing heavy calibre cannon?
Something like the Royal Navies Rato Rockets for 'emergency launching' when the catapult was U/S? Not a stunning success as I understand it
A similar German system could be used where runways were cratered to allow for a shorter take off and/or to rapidly gain altitude/Speed - this I think would be a greater use of the Technology!
It could also allow for heavier armed and armoured FW190s (with more 30mm cannon and Air to Air rocket packs) to get into an advantageous position vs a bomber formation.
thaddeus
Donor
but they had "shiny new object syndrome"
could have implemented an enhanced RATO system almost overnight, the pilots would require little (or no) training and the aircraft would already exist, awaiting refitting.
marathag
Banned
Or looked for a mixed power aircraft, like the Ryan Fireball XFR-4
Around 500mph with both radial Wright R-1820 and J-34 turbojet
Without the wingfold and other carrier gear, may have been a bit faster
Unlike some of the other early jets, it had good maneuverability and stability
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thaddeus
Donor
thanks for posting that, had forgotten about that one.
since over 300 ME-163s were constructed it is safe to speculate at least that many Bf-109s could have been retrofitted with rockets, and that aircraft was already reaching over 400 mph.
(mention rockets because they were already experienced with those and they could be hung under the wings, self contained)