Edward VI's Spanish Match

Much is made of Edward VI's marrying on the board - top candidates: 1) Mary, queen of Scots; 2) Élisabeth de Valois; and 3) Lady Jane Grey. But little attention seems to be given to his proposed match to Juana of Spain,daughter of Charles V. OTL she was married to a husband who did his duty by her and then died, so there wouldn't necessarily be too much deviation from her life, besides the fact that Eddie has the possibility of leaving at least a posthumous child. If it's a son, we have the next Tudor king, if it's a girl, well, it's still gonna be shit and giggles for England in 1554/1555.

What's everyone think?
 
The problem here is, is that the POD needs to make Edward VI live longer.

In OTL, Edward was born in 12 October 1537 and died 6 July 1553, aged 15, while João Manuel, Prince of Portugal, was born in 3 June 1537, and lived to the age of 16, dying in 2 January 1554.
That extra year is enough to give OTL Joanna of Austria, Princess of Portugal, enough time to conceive a child.
so, if we can have Edward VI, live just a little longer, during his marriage to Joanna, maybe we could see, OTL Dom Sebastian I being born as King Charles I of England :D

But what happens during the date of King Edwards death and the birth of King Charles I, on 20 January 1554? Can Edward, carry on for another 6 months just to see his son born?
 
The problem here is, is that the POD needs to make Edward VI live longer.

In OTL, Edward was born in 12 October 1537 and died 6 July 1553, aged 15, while João Manuel, Prince of Portugal, was born in 3 June 1537, and lived to the age of 16, dying in 2 January 1554.
That extra year is enough to give OTL Joanna of Austria, Princess of Portugal, enough time to conceive a child.
so, if we can have Edward VI, live just a little longer, during his marriage to Joanna, maybe we could see, OTL Dom Sebastian I being born as King Charles I of England :D

But what happens during the date of King Edwards death and the birth of King Charles I, on 20 January 1554? Can Edward, carry on for another 6 months just to see his son born?

Well, Northumberland's dosing him with arsenic (which extends life rather than truncates it when given over a prolonged period) in order to hasten Eddie's demise could surely be butterflied.
 
You are forgetting the crucial factor - religion

Edward was the most Protestant of HVIIIs children and his court even more so
while Madrid thought of themselves as the champions of the Catholic church
(and acted that way too)

No way a Spanish or even Portuguese Match for him... neither side would permit it.
 
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Edward was the most Protestant of HVIIIs children and his court even more so
while Madrid thought of themselves as the champions of the Catholic church
(and acted that way too)

No way a Spanish Match for him... neither side would permit it.

What if the marriage was proposed in a treaty? Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, states that unless his daughter is married to King Edward, an invasion of England, would come sooner, rather then later?

What if Princess Mary, was able with the support of her catholic allies, such as Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, Stephen Gardiner and Edward Courtenay, 1st Earl of Devon, to persuade the court, to allow her brother to marry a catholic, with the pretence that any heirs would be brought up to the religion of both.
 
Not if cows began to fly ...

What if the marriage was proposed in a treaty? Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, states that unless his daughter is married to King Edward, an invasion of England, would come sooner, rather then later?

What if Princess Mary, was able with the support of her catholic allies, such as Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, Stephen Gardiner and Edward Courtenay, 1st Earl of Devon, to persuade the court, to allow her brother to marry a catholic, with the pretence that any heirs would be brought up to the religion of both.

in the 1540s and 1550s the HRE of itself cannot make any credible threats against England
even Hapsburg Spain is too tied up with the Americas and France to bother
(and by the 1560s is bogged down in the Netherlands)


as for any English Catholic Traitors, then with Somerset & co in charge if they make such overt moves then I suspect they will simply go the Tower earlier
and without the Kings early death lose their heads - as they fully deserved.

With luck Mary herself will be discredited and fully excluded from the line of succession
and England will never suffer the indignity of the Spanish Marriage, with the internal blood bath that created, and the sense of entitlement it raised in the Spider of the Escorial.
 
The problem here is, is that the POD needs to make Edward VI live longer.

In OTL, Edward was born in 12 October 1537 and died 6 July 1553, aged 15, while João Manuel, Prince of Portugal, was born in 3 June 1537, and lived to the age of 16, dying in 2 January 1554.
That extra year is enough to give OTL Joanna of Austria, Princess of Portugal, enough time to conceive a child.

No, the POD doesn't need to make Edward VI live longer. What are you talking about? Sebastian was born on 20 January 1554. That would mean he was conceived around April 1553, while Edward VI was still alive.
 
I do not see a Catholic marriage for Edward VI.

Any chance of a possibility of a Protestant Branch of the Habsburgs coming about?
 
Well, on paper, it makes for some pretty neat combos:
Edward marries Juana to produce more little Tudors; Charles then puts pressure on the English court to send Elizabeth to marry the Prince of Portugal (as was proposed OTL) or she marries the future Felipe II. This leaves Mary in England, and strengthens the possibility that if Edward dies leaving a child - or even a repeat of the Portuguese situation, the heiress-presumptive to the throne is a Catholic.

And considering that two out of the three candidates listed were Catholics who wouldn't change their religion for all the crowns in Christendom, and that Edward considered himself capable of persuading his wife of Pope bad, Protestants good, I don't think that a Catholic marriage is that far out of left field.

I mean come on, besides a German princess - IDK which one - the only other Protestant princess ever mentioned for him is one of Gustaf Vasa's daughters.

Edward was a prig, no argument there, but maybe his wife being Catholic gets him to be more tolerant of the Old Religion?
 
With luck Mary herself will be discredited and fully excluded from the line of succession

Mary was fully excluded from the succession by Edward VI. That was the reason for the entire debacle of Lady Jane Grey.

And it was not enough, despite Mary's Catholicity, for Mary to be denied the throne. And her trying to persuade her brother to marry a Catholic would not exclude her, since Edward himself was previous betroded to another catholic, Elisabeth of Valois, in 1551.

No, it was still an era where Catholic royalty could still marry protestant royalty. Elizabeth herself seriously considered the Duke of Alencon, and one hundred years later, Charles II married the catholic Catherine of Braganza.

Unless Mary dies before Edward, or Edward lived long enough to sire sons, she would be queen as befits the eldest surviving daughter of Henry VIII.
 
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If Edward did marry a Catholic with the understanding their heirs were raised CoE, would Mary stay out of manipulating in English politics?
 
Edward betrothed in 1551?!

...since Edward himself was previous betrothed to another catholic, Elisabeth of Valois, in 1551.

certainly after the peace treaty of 1550, the French court sent ambassadors to London
who approached the English with the possibility of an alliance cemented by this marriage
.. a desperate move on their part caused by the looming threat of Spain on one side & the growing protestants rebellion in France on the other.

The English spun out the talks - milking the French for many perks and setting a huge dowry
and by March 1551 semi personal gifts were being exchanged between the youngsters
(two of which survive to today as portraits in the others national collections)

but AIUI no formal betrothal was ever published .. and by custom, if not formal law, it would have had to have been (in England at least)

IMHO the Betrothal, never mind the marriage, would never have been enacted ...
at the very same time Edward & his protestant advisers lost patience with the double dealing of Howard & Gardiner etc and threw them in the Tower, intending to execute them later.
 
So, then, we need to either minimize the reaction to/prevent Gardiner and Howard's actions/double dealings? And if the advisors were so Protestant, why were they still moving in the French-Imperial shuffle instead of trying other avenues (like in SpaceOddity's TL)?
 
No, the POD doesn't need to make Edward VI live longer. What are you talking about? Sebastian was born on 20 January 1554. That would mean he was conceived around April 1553, while Edward VI was still alive.

Edward VI became ill during January 1553 with a fever and cough that gradually worsened.
We need him to be well enough to be able to conceive, meaning that we cant let him get ill until after May, which means he has to live longer.

Also if he dies before the heir is born, what stops Mary or Elizabeth, killing the mother and unborn child, or even spreading rumours of adultery, after Edward dies and usurping the throne?
 
Edward VI became ill during January 1553 with a fever and cough that gradually worsened.
We need him to be well enough to be able to conceive, meaning that we cant let him get ill until after May, which means he has to live longer.

Also if he dies before the heir is born, what stops Mary or Elizabeth, killing the mother and unborn child, or even spreading rumours of adultery, after Edward dies and usurping the throne?

Well, I think that's why Kellan suggested getting Elizabeth out of country ASAP, since Mary (respecting her cousin as she did) would be less of a rallying point, if only by dint of sharing half a bloodline and a religion with the queen. Also, while many Catholics didn't LIKE Eddie, unlike Elizabeth he wasn't the product of bigamy/bastardy and his right to the throne wasn't contested like hers. Everyone accepted the Tudor succession ran: Edward, then Mary, but not everyone agreed on Elizabeth.
 
Well, I think that's why Kellan suggested getting Elizabeth out of country ASAP, since Mary (respecting her cousin as she did) would be less of a rallying point, if only by dint of sharing half a bloodline and a religion with the queen. Also, while many Catholics didn't LIKE Eddie, unlike Elizabeth he wasn't the product of bigamy/bastardy and his right to the throne wasn't contested like hers. Everyone accepted the Tudor succession ran: Edward, then Mary, but not everyone agreed on Elizabeth.

I really only suggested sending Elizabeth to Lisbon because I wasn't sure if the court would necessarily accept a double Habsburg match. But, I do agree, Mary will be a lightening rod, and the easiest way to "neutralize" her Imperial support (France wasn't so big on Mary, probably 'cause of her Spanish blood) for anything would be to give them someone else to support - in this case, Juana, the pregnant Queen, versus Mary, the heiress-presumptive.
 
Edward VI became ill during January 1553 with a fever and cough that gradually worsened.
We need him to be well enough to be able to conceive, meaning that we cant let him get ill until after May, which means he has to live longer.

Also if he dies before the heir is born, what stops Mary or Elizabeth, killing the mother and unborn child, or even spreading rumours of adultery, after Edward dies and usurping the throne?

Northumberland? I mean, he could presumably stop Mary from murdering the pregnant queen, since he's running the kingdom. (I don't see how Elizabeth comes into it). Nothing, I suppose, would stop Mary from spreading rumors of adultery, but will anyone care?

Also, why would Mary murder her cousin and sister-in-law? She hated Elizabeth and actually had power, and never murdered her.
 
If Eddie still dies on schedule, leaving Queen Joan/Jane pregnant, what route might English politics take? For instance, will Northumberland just have an extended regency when the kid is born, or will we see someone else taking the reins? Might Karl V instruct Juana to play a second fiddle to Mary (or even order her to return home so he can marry her off again) like he did in her OTL situation in Portugal?
 
Northumberland? I mean, he could presumably stop Mary from murdering the pregnant queen, since he's running the kingdom. (I don't see how Elizabeth comes into it). Nothing, I suppose, would stop Mary from spreading rumors of adultery, but will anyone care?

Also, why would Mary murder her cousin and sister-in-law? She hated Elizabeth and actually had power, and never murdered her.

I agree. Where is this Mary is into murdering unborn heir coming from? That is completely out of character. I understand that a lot of people were raised on the "Bloody Mary" name of Whiggish history, but character-wise she was more tender-hearted than Elizabeth - for instance Jane Grey, who actually called Mary a b!stard and called for Mary's death in documents she signed during her nine-day "reign" was not immediately killed and probably would not have been had her father not taken part in a subsequent rebellion and Philip of Spain's advisors pressured her, and as mentioned Mary never physically harmed Elizabeth (who evidence or no, certainly at least knew about plots to kill Mary/ursurp the throne on her behalf).

Mary always regarded Edward VI as her rightful king (remember he was born and Henry VIII married Jane Seymour married AFTER her Catherine of Aragon's death) and always regarded her Habsburg relatives with as her protectors (though Charles V actually never did anything for her). She would have regarded any Catholic wife as her ally or even any legitimate Protestant heir as her liege lords.
 
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