Richard, 3rd Duke of York has a twin brother/ Urusula of York is born a boy
- Thread starter VVD0D95
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Richard did have an older brother, Henry of York, who would have been born some where between 1409 (birth of Isabel of York) and January 1411 (9 months before Richard of York)
Not much is known about Henry, so I assume he only lived a few days. But what if this older brother, with his nephew's support could become, King Henry VII?
As for a brother of Richard, twins rarely go full term in medieval time due to the harm to mother and babies, but say that these two small boys were healthy enough, I could see the second boy, being named Edmund after Richard of Conisburgh, 3rd Earl of Cambridge's father and after Anne's grandfather, Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March and her brother, Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March.
So now we have Edmund of York, also born on 21 September 1411. Would he be married off to, Lady Margaret Beaufort, the second and youngest daughter of John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset, by his wife Margaret Holland, the daughter of Thomas Holland, 2nd Earl of Kent by his wife Alice Arundel.
Margaret's father, was an illegitimate son of John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster, the third surviving son of King Edward III, by his mistress, later his third wife, Katherine Swynford. Margaret was thus a great-granddaughter of King Edward III, giving the house of York an even stronger link to the throne.
Not much is known about Henry, so I assume he only lived a few days. But what if this older brother, with his nephew's support could become, King Henry VII?
As for a brother of Richard, twins rarely go full term in medieval time due to the harm to mother and babies, but say that these two small boys were healthy enough, I could see the second boy, being named Edmund after Richard of Conisburgh, 3rd Earl of Cambridge's father and after Anne's grandfather, Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March and her brother, Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March.
So now we have Edmund of York, also born on 21 September 1411. Would he be married off to, Lady Margaret Beaufort, the second and youngest daughter of John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset, by his wife Margaret Holland, the daughter of Thomas Holland, 2nd Earl of Kent by his wife Alice Arundel.
Margaret's father, was an illegitimate son of John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster, the third surviving son of King Edward III, by his mistress, later his third wife, Katherine Swynford. Margaret was thus a great-granddaughter of King Edward III, giving the house of York an even stronger link to the throne.
VVD0D95
Banned
Hmm both are very interesting proposals, if it were Henry would survived, he'd be the third duke of york no? Would he still go the same route as his younger brother did in otl? And as for Richard's twin, that could be very interesting, and could likely butterfly away the whole Tudor cause no? Would Edmund consider marrying her, considering the rivalrie between York and Beaufort?
As the older brother, he would be the heir and next in line, to become Duke of York, Edward would just simply be the spare.
Well Henry would still have the same traits, such as being a great-grandson of King Edward III through his father, and a great-great-great-grandson of the same king through his mother, meaning he still had the competing claim on the throne.
I could still see him inheriting vast estates and serving in various offices of state in Ireland, France, and England, like his brother in OTL.
As for being chosen as Lord Protector during the madness of King Henry VI, this would be based on how he was at the various roles he has held.
Also will Henry have conflicts with Henry's wife, Margaret of Anjou, and other members of Henry's court, like Richard did in OTL.
Well in OTL, John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset, had died in 16 March 1410, aged 37, so did not have any rivalries personally with the house of York.
The rivalry, mainly started between Richard and John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset (son of John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset) in the mid 1440s, so if you can marry Edmund and Margaret off in 1420's (similar to her OTL marriage to Thomas de Courtenay, 5th Earl of Devon) could form an alliance with the house of York and Beaufort.
If they can ally, then the house of Lancaster is left with one less ally, meaning the house of York could become the ruling house, keeping the house of Tudor, out of the running and only being a prominent family in Wales.
VVD0D95
Banned
Hmm very true, and for Henry do you not mean Richard, as Richard would be Henry's younger brother.
Hmm all very interesting, from what I know of Margaret it seems she'd always be suspicious of the Yorkists because of their superior claim.
And okay interesting, would this alliance last though?
Sorry, I do mean Richard
too many names lolBut isn't suspicious and jealousy, two sides of the same coin, if she is able to marry into the family, she too will be able to claim and give her children, the claim to the throne.
I would hope that with the marriage, the other members of the two families would work better together to support each other, rather then trying to out do each other.
VVD0D95
Banned
Sorry, I do mean Richard
But isn't suspicious and jealousy, two sides of the same coin, if she is able to marry into the family, she too will be able to claim and give her children, the claim to the throne.
I would hope that with the marriage, the other members of the two families would work better together to support each other, rather then trying to out do each other.
Hmm true, true. I mean Margaert D'Anjou would likely always be suspicious of the Yorkists, whilst Beaufort might actually come to care for her extended famiy. Hmm the butterflies of this could be quite something
Margeret Beaufort would be unlikely to marry the Duke of York.
Henry IV was very enthusiastic for Margaret to marry Edmund Tudor precisely, because it reduced the chances of a Yorkist Claim to the Throne.
The Earl of Westmoreland would also have used his oppertunity to betrothe Cecily Neville to the Duke of York. Richard would have to find himself another heiress.
VVD0D95
Banned
Hmm, if we go with Richard's twin brother Edmund being around, whom might he marry then?
That would depend on two things how much land does Richard inherit, and what heiresses were around in the 1420`s, most likely in England or France. Neville does have a lot of children, but Richard will be a lot less attractive.
VVD0D95
Banned
Aha no worries, so with Edmund being the younger twin, whom do you think he might marry? Would Richard still marry Cecily Neville?
If the Twins became, as is likely the wards of the Earl of Westmoreland it was virtually inevitable that he would marry the most wealthy, one to one of his daughters. That would seem to be Cecily.
VVD0D95
Banned
Hmm interesting, so if we had Richard be the older brother then, likely he'd be married to Cecily. As for Edmund, well could that mean he develops a career as a soldier or politican, able to aid his brother in later years?
In OTL Richard of York was a capable and sometime successful Soldier and politician. One possible marital partner of a younger Edmund would be Anne Beauchamp, that would have some interesting implications for how things would play out, in the following years.
VVD0D95
Banned
Anne? OTL Richard Neville's wife? Hmm very interesting, that would make Edmund extremly powerful.
Yes and it wouldn`t improve relationships with the Beauforts. On the other hand the Middleham Nevilles would have less reason to join the Yorkists.