What would it have taken for the Western Allies to declare war on the Soviet Union?
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See my post at https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=9880406&postcount=4 where I note that "it would be a bit incongruous for France and the UK to declare war on the USSR for Poland's sake when *Poland itself* did not declare war on the USSR! And legally, there was no commitment to defend Poland against any country other than Germany, at least unless Poland asked for such a declaration (which she didn't)... Whether there was a chance that the Western Allies would later go to war with the Soviet Union after its invasion of Finland is another matter. (The French proposed the bombing of Baku; the British were to say the least skeptical.) This is still very unlikely IMO. But declaring war in September 1939 over Poland is not just unlikely but *extremely* unlikely."
A Poland that is doing significantly better against both?
Imo if Poland did not have lost already, or at least felt that way, and called for its allies to help them? I can see them ever so reluctantly do something.
If it would be the DoW to the USSR or only further help? That is up to debate.
Imo if Poland did not have lost already, or at least felt that way, and called for its allies to help them? I can see them ever so reluctantly do something.
If it would be the DoW to the USSR or only further help? That is up to debate.
If the French simply overwhelm Germany's forces on the Rhine and in the Rhineland in early September 1939 then i think all historians agree the German war would be over pretty quickly. Hitler would most certainly be overthrown by the army.
What sort of peace the French and British would settle for is very difficult to know.
However these are the most favourable circumstances for an Anglo French declaration of war on the Soviets.
Even so i think it highly unlikely, there was real public hostility to the idea of war with the Soviets, there's the problem of war aims.
If Germany's Rhine front collapses quickly enough ( almost a fore gone conclusion ) then Hitler could well be gone before the Soviet's attack Finland - in which case the Soviet's are unlikely to attack Finland.
If the French move into the Rhineland quickly enough they may forestall the Soviet invasion of Poland - Stalin seeing the writing is on the wall for Hitler likely won't attack Poland.
However if German forces on the Rhine collapse and the Soviets still invade Poland then the French and British may then continue the war against the Soviet's.
Unlikely though - Stalin was very frightened of a war with Britain and France and despite his dictatorial ways was probably the most cautious of the wartime leaders.
What sort of peace the French and British would settle for is very difficult to know.
However these are the most favourable circumstances for an Anglo French declaration of war on the Soviets.
Even so i think it highly unlikely, there was real public hostility to the idea of war with the Soviets, there's the problem of war aims.
If Germany's Rhine front collapses quickly enough ( almost a fore gone conclusion ) then Hitler could well be gone before the Soviet's attack Finland - in which case the Soviet's are unlikely to attack Finland.
If the French move into the Rhineland quickly enough they may forestall the Soviet invasion of Poland - Stalin seeing the writing is on the wall for Hitler likely won't attack Poland.
However if German forces on the Rhine collapse and the Soviets still invade Poland then the French and British may then continue the war against the Soviet's.
Unlikely though - Stalin was very frightened of a war with Britain and France and despite his dictatorial ways was probably the most cautious of the wartime leaders.
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Would the revelation that the Nazis and the Soviets had decided together to carve up Poland changed that?
If Poland was doing significantly better, then why would Stalin get into a war with them? If Germany got its ass kicked in the first round, then he would wait until Poland ran out of strength fighting the Germans, or focus his attention on his other neighbours while Poland was occupied (in the 'busy' sense of occupied, not the...y'know).
redlightning
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They wouldn't have. If this had happened, for a time the Soviet Union would've invaded France and helped make landings in Britain eventually too.
The Russians would've used Poland as a gateway to invade western Europe. It does delay the invasion of the USSR by Germany for some time either.
The Russians would've used Poland as a gateway to invade western Europe. It does delay the invasion of the USSR by Germany for some time either.
Exactly how are the Russians going to help land in Britain? They can't provide naval superiority and their air force was very poor at the time. Having a massive amount of manpower does no good if you can't land them.
