WWII WI: a Wiking fleet (BV-222)

thaddeus

Donor
what if Germany scrapped their carrier projects and built a flying boat fleet comparable in size to what the Japanese had with "Emily?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_H8K or 150 - 200?

would stipulate the BV-222B with more powerful diesel engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_&_Voss_BV_222

cancel the destroyers and torpedo boats started after/during 1938 but finish the Dithmarschen-class of tankers and equip a larger fleet of auxiliary cruisers (not to attack convoys but to provide web of stealth supply ships)
 

Driftless

Donor
How would you see them used? The OTL seems to indicate they tried them at a number of tasks, with the best success at hauling weight over distance. It doesn't sound like they were real nimble, not that you'd expect agility from an aircraft that huge.

Kind of a German "Spruce Goose"? Except that it had an actual operational career.
 
Reconissance over the Atlantic, and dropping mines at night in UK waters are two missions. Neither is a war winner in itself, and other non boat aircraft can do those missions just as well.
 

Driftless

Donor
Reconissance over the Atlantic, and dropping mines at night in UK waters are two missions. Neither is a war winner in itself, and other non boat aircraft can do those missions just as well.

You'd have to think those planes would have a huge radar signature, even for those early days. (Hey! A mission for the BP-Defiant Night Fighters....;))

Night time bombing or mining runs on Gibraltar, or Alexandria, or the Suez from Wikings based in Italy? They'd have the range. That might be it though...
 
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sharlin

Banned
They'd spend too long in harbour bickering about small points in silly discussions, trying to argue for the impossible to happen and then asking why...WHY! different types of engines were not introduced earlier.
 

thaddeus

Donor
How would you see them used? The OTL seems to indicate they tried them at a number of tasks, with the best success at hauling weight over distance. It doesn't sound like they were real nimble, not that you'd expect agility from an aircraft that huge.

Kind of a German "Spruce Goose"? Except that it had an actual operational career.

Reconissance over the Atlantic, and dropping mines at night in UK waters are two missions. Neither is a war winner in itself, and other non boat aircraft can do those missions just as well.

thought they were well regarded, if not as agile as fighters of course. IOTL the "bigger cousin" BV-238 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_&_Voss_BV_238 switched to more powerful gasoline engines, my OP specified the larger diesel engine Junkers Jumo 208 with nearly 500 more hp.

they could provide reconnaissance over a greater area since they could be refueled at sea. carried supplies and personnel to u-boats and auxiliary cruisers.

could have carried torpedoes and attacked convoys themselves, or in conjunction with u-boats.

bomber versions could have carried payload of heavy bomber classes.
 
what if Germany scrapped their carrier projects and built a flying boat fleet comparable in size to what the Japanese had with "Emily?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_H8K or 150 - 200?

would stipulate the BV-222B with more powerful diesel engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_&_Voss_BV_222

cancel the destroyers and torpedo boats started after/during 1938 but finish the Dithmarschen-class of tankers and equip a larger fleet of auxiliary cruisers (not to attack convoys but to provide web of stealth supply ships)

they could provide reconnaissance over a greater area since they could be refueled at sea. carried supplies and personnel to u-boats and auxiliary cruisers.

could have carried torpedoes and attacked convoys themselves, or in conjunction with u-boats.

bomber versions could have carried payload of heavy bomber classes.

Its really something attributing such foresight to the Luftwaffe of developing in cooperation with the Kriegsmarine a Naval aircraft with a role depending upon scrapping a large part of the Kriegsmarine build programme!

I think you have to have a major change of minds within both services for anything of this magnitude to take place within Nazi-Germany.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Its really something attributing such foresight to the Luftwaffe of developing in cooperation with the Kriegsmarine a Naval aircraft with a role depending upon scrapping a large part of the Kriegsmarine build programme!

I think you have to have a major change of minds within both services for anything of this magnitude to take place within Nazi-Germany.

my POD would be the LW (Goering) wins the argument(s) that had been ongoing. maybe he is given control of budgets for both?

the argument would be time it takes to build ship vs. (approx.) two month build time of seaplane. now obviously the Wiking is not going to do EVERYTHING a destroyer or supply ship can do but the reverse is also true.

also the German Army would probably support curtailing KM building, since it means more tanks? and at least in theory the planes could/would support army operations.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Reconissance over the Atlantic, and dropping mines at night in UK waters are two missions. Neither is a war winner in itself, and other non boat aircraft can do those missions just as well.

You'd have to think those planes would have a huge radar signature, even for those early days. (Hey! A mission for the BP-Defiant Night Fighters....;))

Night time bombing or mining runs on Gibraltar, or Alexandria, or the Suez from Wikings based in Italy? They'd have the range. That might be it though...

but they don't have to takeoff and land in France, they could approach from Greenland, Rocas Atoll, etc.

and the LW would still have the FW-200 Condors so Allies could not forget them while chasing the "black whales."
 

sharlin

Banned
Invading Norway will be a hell of a lot harder with less destroyers, the BV's can't carry the men in enough quantities.
 
the argument would be time it takes to build ship vs. (approx.) two month build time of seaplane. now obviously the Wiking is not going to do EVERYTHING a destroyer or supply ship can do but the reverse is also true.

Problem is the BV 222 only got operational by September 1940 or really december post fall of France... according to the wiki you posted!!!

An effort into a real four engine recce/bomber instead of the FW200 which was a civvie airliner pressed into service.

Other persuits of operating small flying boats by tenders at sea had proven not worth the effort and the US opted out of the big Mars. I would expect refuelling at sea to be exciting!
 

thaddeus

Donor
Invading Norway will be a hell of a lot harder with less destroyers, the BV's can't carry the men in enough quantities.

Problem is the BV 222 only got operational by September 1940 or really december post fall of France... according to the wiki you posted!!!

An effort into a real four engine recce/bomber instead of the FW200 which was a civvie airliner pressed into service.

Other persuits of operating small flying boats by tenders at sea had proven not worth the effort and the US opted out of the big Mars.

the similar sized DO-X had operated in the 1920s, the concept and technology were proven only a decision made to pursue building them.

only used the Wiking as an example of size, design, etc. could just as easily have named a thread after Dornier DO-214 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_214 circa the same period (and they were the builder of the DO-X)

my thinking the FW-200 Condor was a clever use of existing aircraft, although they needed to press the JU-290 into service earlier as a successor.

(forget the HE-177 and use more powerful engines on HE-111 for a fast variant?)

do not see the comparison with whether the U.S. built flying boats or not, we had access to best ports and airfields in the world. AND ability to produce capital ships in numbers and throughout the war, Germany had none of those things.

destroyers for Norway campaign would not change, sorry if I was unclear, I proposed canceling the 1936A class - onward ( Z23 - onward, the ones given numerical designations) those were not launched 1940.

not sure if destroyers were best choice for Narvik anyway though? if 20 Wikings were available that would be nearly the same number carried by OTL flotilla (1,840 vs. 1,900.)

could have kept the shorter range destroyers elsewhere and sent the Emden, Bremse, and Grille (all could have laid mines) to Narvik along with dozen or so BV-222s.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The Allies applaud

At a stroke the KM has been crippled to the point that Norway will probably fight off the invasion and for every one of these giants that are built the Luftwaffe loses the materials to build 10, maybe 12 fighters or 5-6 Ju-88. If they promise to build 200, the U.S. will probably float them a loan.

Like most vastly oversized aircraft the thing probably handled like a pig. According the Wiki link one was shot down by a PBY:eek:.
 
the similar sized DO-X had operated in the 1920s, the concept and technology were proven only a decision made to pursue building them.

Ehem, the Do-X was a passenger plane... Not military design... It was a kind a wing in ground effect vehicle flying no more than 15 meters above the sea when crossing the Atlantic.
I don't think that proves anything about a military concept.

my thinking the FW-200 Condor was a clever use of existing aircraft, although they needed to press the JU-290 into service earlier as a successor.

(forget the HE-177 and use more powerful engines on HE-111 for a fast variant?)

The FW-200 was a passenger liner by design and never build to lift the heavy weights it had to do as a Naval recce plane. It was known to often break the fuselage on landing due to excessive payload.


do not see the comparison with whether the U.S. built flying boats or not,

The need for those BIG seaplanes was as passenger transport not warvehicles! They were too vulnerable. It wasn't to compare to US as such but the handling experiences of seaplanes at sea!!!
Seaplanes isn't good for being bombers anyway. Bombdoors are in the low part of the fuselage which isn't be best place for such on a seaplane. The other option is to carry armaments underwing which is a detriment to performance.
 

thaddeus

Donor
The Allies applaud

At a stroke the KM has been crippled to the point that Norway will probably fight off the invasion and for every one of these giants that are built the Luftwaffe loses the materials to build 10, maybe 12 fighters or 5-6 Ju-88. If they promise to build 200, the U.S. will probably float them a loan.

Like most vastly oversized aircraft the thing probably handled like a pig. According the Wiki link one was shot down by a PBY:eek:.

why Norway? the 22 destroyers used there were already built and what I mentioned either was never completed (the KM carriers and conversion projects) or was launched later ( 19 destroyers and torpedo boats.)

at any rate the OTL invasion of Narvik required airborne troops and commandos sneaking through Sweden to succeed?

believe they started building them as unarmed cargo planes, what I am projecting are armed as the Japanese equivalent or BV-238 project were.

expect they would handle (using the larger Jumo diesel) about as well as any large aircraft of the era.

my scenario would leave the LW with the OTL number of Condors, a large number of seaplanes, additional JU-290s, and scratch the HE-177.

not certain but believe that is leaving them with approx. the same or greater resources.
 
at any rate the OTL invasion of Narvik required airborne troops and commandos sneaking through Sweden to succeed?

Ehm, no. One airborne battalion committed piecemeal. Something like a company and a battery flown into Narvik post the seaborne landing of a mountain regiment later augmented by the surviving Navy personnel of the sunken destroyers. Some replacement personnel routed through Sweden by train after the Swedish could see the enevitable outcome.

With your proposal the Germans would need something like 12 BV-222 to airlift the Mountain regiment including the lost arty battery to Narvik though then they don't have the firepower to fight off the two Norwegain armoured ships or the reinforcing 2500 seamen from the sunken destroyers which in the end might see an earlier defeat of the Germans there!
And the Swedes may decide to refuse the German pressure just a little longer.

They would of course be lucky the Norwegians had so few fighter aircraft but even Gladiators could down Bf-110s and Ju-52s. Something else if the Norwegians had just had their six outfitting P-36s ready.
 
Seaplanes isn't good for being bombers anyway. Bombdoors are in the low part of the fuselage which isn't be best place for such on a seaplane. The other option is to carry armaments underwing which is a detriment to performance.

Or in wingcells (Consolidated PBY2 and the various bids for the RAF R.5/39) or engine nacelle bays (Martin PBM Mariner).

There is also the possibility of wing pods - if the Valiant bomber can be fitted with them, then putting them on an already slow flying boat isn't going to cause many problems.
 
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thaddeus

Donor
not sure if destroyers were best choice for Narvik anyway though? if 20 Wikings were available that would be nearly the same number carried by OTL flotilla (1,840 vs. 1,900.)

could have kept the shorter range destroyers elsewhere and sent the Emden, Bremse, and Grille (all could have laid mines) to Narvik along with dozen or so BV-222s.

Ehm, no. One airborne battalion committed piecemeal. Something like a company and a battery flown into Narvik post the seaborne landing of a mountain regiment later augmented by the surviving Navy personnel of the sunken destroyers. Some replacement personnel routed through Sweden by train after the Swedish could see the enevitable outcome.

With your proposal the Germans would need something like 12 BV-222 to airlift the Mountain regiment including the lost arty battery to Narvik though then they don't have the firepower to fight off the two Norwegain armoured ships or the reinforcing 2500 seamen from the sunken destroyers which in the end might see an earlier defeat of the Germans there!
And the Swedes may decide to refuse the German pressure just a little longer.

They would of course be lucky the Norwegians had so few fighter aircraft but even Gladiators could down Bf-110s and Ju-52s. Something else if the Norwegians had just had their six outfitting P-36s ready.

sorry if I was unclear, was never proposing an airborne invasion of Narvik only deploying the DDs elsewhere and using the giant seaplanes for transport along with some longer range ships. (mentioned three with mine laying capability so they could have "sealed themselves in" the harbor)

there were also some covert resupply ships there (and intended to be there) and that would continue.

the Wikings could stop at various points and unload just as the DDs did and then fly back to Denmark, well within their range, avoiding the delays that caused the sinking of the DDs.
 
LW was chronically short of transport planes to carry Fallschirmjaegers, resupply Afrikaans Korps and Stalingrad. Seaplanes can also land on lakes , rivers and snow.
OTL Germans wasted huge amounts of time and energy capturing enemy airfields. Far easier to use flying boats to carry Fallsschirmjaegers to capture any convenient fishing village or bridge?
 
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