WI: Communist Germany in WW2

[nickjbor]

Been a while since I've been here but I have a question.

I'm curious what a Communist Germany would have done in a WW2 situation. Lets presume Hitler never comes to power (killed at some point in the 20's, or before) and that the desire for radical change allows the Communists to take power.

I am curious what WW2 would have been like. Would it have been delayed? (I presume so, as the Communists were a bit behind the NAZIs in winning support)

Would Poland have been "invaded" or just suddenly found itself with a militarized communist party?

Would there have been a WW2 as we knew it, or just a series of communist revolts?


Any and all thoughts are appreciated.

[nickjbor]

I found this
http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=118413
Which has a Germany and USSR alliance lasting.

In our time line we had:

Germany - Italy - Japan
VS
USA - UK - USSR

I'm thinking that in this time line we might be looking at

Germany - USSR - Japan
VS
USA - UK - Italy

[bobbis14]

Yeah Germany is definatly going to be at odds ends with Italy, but how do you achieve this presumably democratic takeover; the KPDs support never rose to more than 20% of the electorate. Similarly you have issues with any kind of military takeover in that it is extremely difficult - the threat of the Spartacists etc was always grossly exagerated.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Well, there's a few issues how this might work:

1) Make Trotsky instead of Stalin win out in the Soviet Union. Under him, the internationalist idea will work much better, and any German communist regime would be more willing to cooperate with the Soviet Union.

2) Butterfly away the Nazis. Well, I have no idea how get Thälmann wins instead of Hitler in 1933, but it might work, given the right conditions.

3) Joint Soviet/German interference in the Spanish civil war.

The creepy part is, as far as I see it, with all likelihood, such a combination would be much more successful than the Nazis in OTL...

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by nickjbor

I'm thinking that in this time line we might be looking at

Germany - USSR - Japan
VS
USA - UK - Italy

Imperial Japan in bed with communists? Now I heard everything. I could see an alliance between Germany, USSR, and China on one side and the US, UK, France, and Japan on the other. But Japan with the reds is just silly.

I say keep the US out of WWI and revolutions in Germany could have been successful. Many of the revolutionaries were German soldiers in OTL who mutinied due to the harsh conditions of the war. But their major problem was lack of capable leadership. When the US entered the war on the allies side it ensured German defeat so by keeping the US out of WWI will mean that Germany will fight longer because it still has a chance at winning and thus more soldiers defect to the communist factions and possibly some talented officers. The effects on the rest of the world during the 20's and 30's, I don't know. But I'm pretty confident that a WWII analogue with Capitalists vs. Communists will happen and maybe some "exporting the revolution" into the Balkans.

[The Vulture]

Japan wouldn't touch that alliance with a long stick- both their aversion to Communism and historical animosity to Russia would keep them out.

Maybe the Chinese Communist Party would request German/ Soviet support in the Civil War, particularly given German ties to China.

[Keith]

On butterflying Hitler away: wouldn't the easiest places to do this be either a) during WW1 (he dies on the Western Front) or b) via a stray bullet during the Munich Putsch?

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by Keith

On butterflying Hitler away: wouldn't the easiest places to do this be either a) during WW1 (he dies on the Western Front) or b) via a stray bullet during the Munich Putsch?

It's not just removing Hitler and the Nazis (that part is easy ), it's also bringing Thälmann and the communists into power.

[bobbis14]

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

It's not just removing Hitler and the Nazis (that part is easy ), it's also bringing Thälmann and the communists into power.

Indeed, OP seems a bit vague in that area; which is really the critical bit!

[karl2025]

Japan's not going to ally with the Allies. A communist alliance is going to be supporting Mao, and in a war the Allies would support the nationalists. Japan doesn't care, they'd fight both and that means the allies will want them to pull out and Japan would lose too much prestige to do that.

I don't know if Germany and the USSR would ally either. They would need to come to an agreement over dividing Poland. Then there's a problem with Germany's independence. The USSR's main goal will be to annex Germany, but Germany's interests are in undoing the damage from the First World War, and they have to remain independent for that. The USSR is going to have their own interests of expansion and annexation, and they'd eventually wonder why they're helping Germany annex Alsace-Lorraine when they don't benefit from it.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by karl2025

Japan's not going to ally with the Allies. A communist alliance is going to be supporting Mao, and in a war the Allies would support the nationalists. Japan doesn't care, they'd fight both and that means the allies will want them to pull out and Japan would lose too much prestige to do that.

Yeah, it makes more sense for Japan to be neutral, even though we could envision an alliance of necessity with Britain and the US, similar to the Soviets' alliance with western powers in OTL's WWII. Depending on the outcome of WWII, we might see either a two-way cold war between the US and Japan, or a three-way cold war between the US, Japan and the communist block.

I don't know if Germany and the USSR would ally either. They would need to come to an agreement over dividing Poland. Then there's a problem with Germany's independence. The USSR's main goal will be to annex Germany, but Germany's interests are in undoing the damage from the First World War, and they have to remain independent for that. The USSR is going to have their own interests of expansion and annexation, and they'd eventually wonder why they're helping Germany annex Alsace-Lorraine when they don't benefit from it.

Well, German-Soviet relations would really mainly depend on who's in charge of the Soviet Union, however, what would make you think that the Soviets would want to annex Germany in such a scenario?

[wormyguy]

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

Well, German-Soviet relations would really mainly depend on who's in charge of the Soviet Union, however, what would make you think that the Soviets would want to annex Germany in such a scenario?

The question is not whether the Soviets would want to annex Germany, but rather if the extremely pro-Soviet figure of Thalmann would want Germany to join the Soviet Union! (The Soviet response would almost certainly be a refusal - Stalin was always very committed to his "socialism in one country" pledge, and Thalmann would want some sort of autonomy for Germany which would present a challenge to Stalin's absolute rule).

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by wormyguy

The question is not whether the Soviets would want to annex Germany, but rather if the extremely pro-Soviet figure of Thalmann would want Germany to join the Soviet Union! (The Soviet response would almost certainly be a refusal - Stalin was always very committed to his "socialism in one country" pledge, and Thalmann would want some sort of autonomy for Germany which would present a challenge to Stalin's absolute rule).

Which is why I suggested have Trotsky instead of Stalin...

[Dan Reilly The Great]

I would say that a communist Germany is entirely possible, I mean IOTL fascism largely rose on the back of hitler's rhetoric. If you can have hitler take a bullet in WWI and butterfly in a surviving man with similar charisma who falls into the communist camp after the war, communism could see success similar to that of fascism IOTL. Hell he could even avoid the missteps that hitler made in his early political career (no Munich Putsch) and have the communists have a longer period of political success. The great depression which could still easily happen would definetly lend credence to the communists in Germany.

Getting Germany and the Soviet Union to cooperate in a war against the west is hardly difficult, considering the cooperation between Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia prior to Barbarossa. Granted it ended in war, and granted it didn't involve any serious military cooperation, but considering the way both leaders were so diametrically opposed on so many issues it still is quite remarkable they managed to cooperate at all.

Japan could go in with the Germans and Soviets, but only if the Civilians stay in charge, if the militarists are in power as per OTL forget about it. Even then however such an outcome is hardly guaranteed, chances are you will have them either going on their own in china or siding with the Allies. Although if that does happen it may keep the US out of the Allied camp, which would really suck for them. It is entirely possible that you may see two seperate conflicts with one in the atlantic and Europe and one in the Pacific and Asia. You could wind up with a cold war with a Communist Eurasian continent and an American backed China and UK facing off against them.

[jaybird]

Thaalman in charge of Germany and Trotsky in charge of Russia means many, many things:

1) The two nations get along far better then OTL. Economically, Germany benefits from Russian resources, and Russia benefits from German expertise. Every other army in the world is screwed when Guderian and Tukhachevsky start putting their heads together. Even if Germany loses all its 'vons' due to the revolution (note: that is not extremely likely to happen, as Germany is still Germany, and its officer corps is still notoriously loyal), the lack of Great Purge will balance out the effects.

2) Asia becomes an enormously important Theater. Japan can forget about holding Manchuria, as the RKKA will more then easily demolish the IJA. Whichever faction the Comintern moves behind will win, as the Allies don't have the time nor inclination to fight too hard for China. If Chiang goes for the Americans, which he may well do, we are going to see the PRC's founding in the early 1940s. The Chinese Red Army historically ran circles around KMT units even with inferior equipment, imagine what they are going to do with MG34s and PPSh SMGs. If Chiang gets smart and falls in behind the Soviets, Mao is done as a serious force unless, and only unless, he can sell this to the Chinese people as another sellout to foreign devils - a hard sell to make, given the communists have just kicked Japan off the mainland!

3) Poland, the Baltics, and Finland are completely and utterly screwed. Don't need to explain this.

4) Italy is doomed. They may be able to hold out in the Alps for a while, but in the end, they can't hold against Germany AND the USSR.

5) France is doomed. Elsass-Lothringen. Enough said.

6) The Home Islands, no matter which ones you are talking about, are safe. This is an alliance of two of the three most incompetent naval powers of World War Two IOTL, and that won't change ITTL. Kriegsmarine and Red Navy will be completely pulverized by the Royal Navy or the IJN, even if they've got all the Bismarcks, Scharnhorsts, Sovietski Soyuzes, and Kronshtadts.

7) End result: A Communist hegemony over Europe, Russia, the Middle East, and the Far East. Britain and Japan become bastions against Communism, supported by the United States if Red Scare gets going. Cold War with far more emphasis on naval, air, and space assets, as ground battles are anticipated to be defensive by the Comintern and futile by the Allies. Democracy gets more right wing.

[karl2025]

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

Well, German-Soviet relations would really mainly depend on who's in charge of the Soviet Union, however, what would make you think that the Soviets would want to annex Germany in such a scenario?

Annex was too strong a word, yes. But the Soviet Union of OTL was rather nationalistic and very self interested. They wanted their allies to be as much an extension of Moscow as possible.

[RGB]

Now a question - who gets the nukes?

[Zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by nickjbor

Been a while since I've been here but I have a question.

I'm curious what a Communist Germany would have done in a WW2 situation. Lets presume Hitler never comes to power (killed at some point in the 20's, or before) and that the desire for radical change allows the Communists to take power.

It is very important how and when you're positing this seizure of power by the Communists. First, since you've explicitly identified the Communists as the ones who are taking power, your PoD is going to have to guarantee the emergence of the Communist Party. There are a couple ways to do this. What cannot happen is that the Left-Center alliance retains control of the SPD, since there would be no vote for war credits on August 4, 1914, no purge of the internationalists, and thus no reason to form a Communist Party. Thus, I'm going to assume the PoD is sometime after the vote on war credits. The two major alternatives are that the internationalists are purged from the party, or they are not. If they are not, you have a faction fight similar to that of the pre-war, where the Center becomes disenchanted with the Right and the Left allies with them to take control of the party, possibly purging the Right. This, of course, also doesn't leave one with a Communist Party, so it's off the table.

So the August 4 vote goes as normal, and the internationalists are purged as normal. IOTL they were divided into the International Group around Luxemburg(which later became the Spartacists), and the International Socialists of Germany around Borchadt. You can avoid this division and have one unified Left come out of the purge, which gives you the basis of a Communist Party much earlier on (say, 1915-16, around the time of the Zimmerwald and Kienthal Conferences). However, this takes some doing. The major difference between the GI and the ISD was that the GI wanted to reconquer the old party or at least remove some of the left-center from it, while the ISD wanted to build a new party immediately and concurrently with building a new International (they were quite close to the Bolsheviks on this issue). If you incapacitate Luxemburg and Jogiches, or imprison both of them (only Luxemburg was imprisoned IOTL out of this duo), it is possible to have an early fusion of the GI and the ISD. Even with an early fusion, however, a grab for power isn't likely until 1917-18 at the earliest.

By 1917 the Center had been purged out of the SPD as well, and was convening to form a new party. The GI (who had become the Spartacists by this point) sought a fusion with them in accordance with their strategy of recruiting the left-center. The ISD (who had become the International Communists of Germany by this point, and had lost Borchadt as a leading figure) opposed this decision on the grounds that it was opportunistic and that the Spartacists would lose their identity and voice within the larger party. If you can get the Spartacist leaders to buy it, you can avoid their incorporation into the Independent Social Democrats (USPD), and that can lead to a fusion with the IKD a little later. Same MO applies: imprison Jogiches and the fusion with the USPD probably won't happen.

The third possible way to form a Communist Party is the way it was done IOTL. There are several good books on the subject.

The fourth is to wait a little longer to split from the USPD: if the Sparts waited until March 1919 and the USPD's Party Congress (like Jogiches wanted, incidentally), they probably wouldn't have gotten massacred in Berlin in January, and would have come out of their split with the USPD with more members. They probably still could have gotten the IKD on board at this point, and a KPD founded in March or April 1919 would have still been able to influence the mass strikes in the Rhineland and Saxony, indeed, possibly better than it was IOTL. Incidentally, any of these PoDs other than the OTL one leaves Luxemburg alive, so you can have fun with that.

Now the problem with any of these scenarios is how to move from founding a Communist Party to having a successful revolution. IMHO it is only possible to do so if you avoid having a situation along the lines of January 1919 or the July Days - that is, a premature confrontation between militant workers and a state that still has some life in it. In my timeline with a successful German revolution, I chose an OTL-like founding of the KPD, defused the January situation and moved the real confrontation to after the March and April mass strikes. Others might move it to early 1923, which saw another interesting situation in most of Germany, but which I haven't studied in enough detail to comment on here (it's probably more realistic than the solution I chose, though).

Someone brought up Red Germany's relations with Soviet Russia. It is my belief that the faction fights in the Comintern would be very different in this situation, particularly if Luxemburg and Jogiches, along with the major theoretical players in Russia (Lenin - center, Bukharin - center right, Trotsky - center left, Miyasnikov - left) survive. You're going to have real divisions over the national question, over the role of soviets and unions, over state management versus self management, and a host of other issues. If you have successful Russian and German Revolutions, you're going to have two parties with relatively equal cachet, instead of a dominant Russian party. Historically, the faction fight in the Russian party ended in a victory for the center-right, which was then able to use its total dominance of the Comintern to install people with similar views in the leadership of all the other parties. The German party was dominated by the left from the start, and will be in any of the scenarios I described above. It might end up that the German party ends up supporting Miyansikov and Trotsky if the Russian faction fights begin, and it is more probable still that Bordiga, Damen, Verchesi, and their ilk won't get ousted from the leadership in the Italian party in favor of Togliatti and Gramsci. So it's not a question of whether Thalmann can be brought to agree with the Russian leadership: in all likelihood the German left and its international allies will be the dominant force in the Comintern, and Thalmann himself won't be all that important.

A final point: Mao wasn't all that important in the CCP until the mid-late thirties, and the CCP itself had dissolved itself into the KMT until 1928. If the Left holds power in the Comintern, that won't happen. Trotsky was particularly opposed.

[Dan Reilly The Great]

Originally Posted by RGB

Now a question - who gets the nukes?

The US probably still gets them first, albiet by a narrow margin. As the brain drain caused by Nazi policies is still going to happen as a result of similarly strong armed policies on the part of a German communist government. Also I'm sure a few will find themselves either the recipients of lead injections or being the inmates of german gulags as a result government paranoia.

[nickjbor]

Wow!! Thanks for all the replies!

As for how, I'm not certain. I will take all of your ideas under advisement. I am, however, more curious as to what would have happened in WW2.

If the Communist government in Germany were Soviet dominated...
Or, if they came to power on their own, and had a bi-lateral agreement...

Would they have bisected Poland and the Baltics?
What of the USSR's war with Finland, would that have been replicated elsewhere?

Would they do as the more modern communists did and not annex their opponents with military force, but rather support communist rebels from inside and add them into their pact as puppet states?

How would WW2 spark off, if it ever does?

What of Japan. They were at odds with the US, and I can't see the US siding with the Communists. Would we have had a three way, Communist VS Capitalist VS Japan WW2?

And the most important question in my mind -
If this alliance of Communist Germany and the USSR wins WW2, what does the world map look like?

Again, thanks for all the replies!!