Quasi-War III

All, a while back, I started a TL to explore the President John Adams Era "Quasi-War" in OTL between France and the United States. In OTL, it was reduced to several years of commerce raiding but eventually petered out in the great French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. The United States, desiring neutrality, attempted to keep out of any "entangling alliances" and managed to avoid conflict until 1812 when impressments of American sailors led to the War of 1812 with Great Britain.

My TL delves into what would have happened if the naval conflict with France escalated. As extremely long TL's are difficult to track, especially for new readers, I broke them into separate Threads (in sequence) to keep the length to manageable levels. There were about 30 chapters in each TL.

Here are the previous TL:

Quasi-War 1 - 1794 to 1808 - The Adams Era
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=344281

Quasi-War 2 - 1808 to 1812 - The Burr Era
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=366914

Key POD's - North America

1. Washington and Adams had a slightly earlier military buildup, which allows an early Barbary War which, in turn, is enough for Adams to be reelected in 1800.

2. Adams refuses to pay back remaining French loans while France is preying on American shipping. The US gravitates toward Great Britain.

3. France invades Quebec in a surprise attack and launches to major raids on the American south to incite a slave rebellion. Napoleon decides against sending an army to put down San Dominigue's slave revolt. This brings America into alliance with Britain.

4. The United States takes defacto sovereignty over "Upper Canada" (Ontario) as it is cut off from the sea anyway. The US eventually buys both Upper Canada and the Hudson Bay Territory.

5. The US invades Florida and Louisiana, both Spanish at the time, on the premise that Spain was a French ally. The US quickly encourages emigration to these areas and Tejas, which remained in dispute.

6. Britain assumes control over most of the Caribbean, excluding Cuba, Puerto Rico, San Dominigue, Guadeloupe and Martinique. They fail, however, in attempt to conquer or liberate the Rio Plata and New Granada.

7. After the capture of the Portuguese Royal Family, Britain establishes a "Protectorate" over Brazil.

8. Aaron Burr is elected US President in 1808.

9. A short peace is quickly disrupted by another war in Europe. Infante Ferdinand, heir to Spain, tries to overthrown his father, King Charles IV. Instead of seeking assistance from France, he asks from help from Great Britain. The French ally with Charles and force the Infante to flee to Britain.

10. Much of New Spain (Mexico) revolts. Britain and the US help the revolutionaries, whom swiftly break into many factions and, after years, several nations. Infante Ferdinand eventually assumes control over New Granada (Venezuela and Colombia). The US claims much of the land in OTL claimed in the Mexican War. They also conquer Guyana (French and Dutch) and lay claim to Spanish and Portuguese Guyana as well.

11. Due to the slave rebellions, the US Presidents Adams and Burr, forbid the extension of slavery into these conquered lands (most of which were "free" or on their way). The Trans-Atlantic slave trade is banned and the US enters into an agreement with Great Britain to police and eliminate the trade. Delaware, Tennessee and Kentucky, dismayed by the hundreds of thousands of deaths due to the southern slave rebellions, eventually move to being "free states". Only Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia remain "slave" states by 1820. This causes severe friction as they are badly outnumbered in congress, feeling their interests are ignored. Also, they want to move into western lands as cotton and tobacco is depleting their own lands. Fearing more insurrections, many southern states enact codes banning free blacks from residing within their limits and force them to sail for new "freedmen" colonies in west Africa.

12. The Federalist and Democratic-Republican Parties merge in 1812 to form the Union Party. The southern states slowly start forming an alliance between Southern Federalists and Democrats to challenge this new dominant party.

13. By 1828, there are 23 states in the union, 18 are "Free" and 5 are "Slave".

14. Burr is reelected in 1816 for a 3rd term. John Quincy Adams is elected in 1820, 1824 and 1828 on the Union ticket. No incumbent President has ever lost a reelection bid.


POD in Europe:

I kept OTL in Europe for most of the way until 1807.

1. Emperor Napoleon decides to side with Charles IV of Spain and evict his son, rather than invading Spain. This allows the joint Franco-Spanish Army to concentrate on Portugal.

2. Instead of invading Russia, Napoleon allies with Czar Alexander to overrun Ottoman Europe, retake Istanbul (Constantinople) and allow Russia naval access to the Mediterranean via the Bosphorus. This causes Great Britain to opposes this move and forms a break between the potential allies.

3. Emperor Napoleon dies of stomach cancer in late 1811, leaving his infant son Napoleon II under the care of his elder brother, Joseph, King of Portugal.

4. Joseph arranges the marriage between his eldest daughter and Charles IV's second son (and new heir as Ferdinand has been removed from the succession).

5. Joseph ends the war large post-bellum. A few colonies seized in the war by Britain are given back to France, the Netherlands, Spain and Portugal. Most are kept by Britain and America keeps their conquests in Florida, Louisiana, the American west and Guyana.

6. In the end, French hegemony is preserved in Western Europe.


OK, I'll add chapters as I go. I used to add three or four character points of view per entry but I may not do that from now on. I may have more chapters but they will be shorter.

Note that I tend to write a few paragraphs during slow times at work and I don't always have time to check for spelling or grammar (nor was I an English major).

Hope you have fun reading it.

Here we go again ..... awesome

What are the 23 states by 1828? A list following original 13, plus Vermont, Kentucky, Tennessee, Huron, Louisiana, and what five others ..... would be great plus what are the US territories ...... Thank you

Maine has broken off of Massachusetts right? - more votes for Union party, and their are two distinct cultures for Maine and Mass. If Maine did breakaway, what is the border situation with British New Brunswick? Perhaps the USA is in a more favorable situation, can throw some money at it.

Were Alabama and Mississippi admitted as two states or one? Or they can be two states going from North to South ....

Huron is the entire Upper Canada or just the populated area of OTL southwest Ontario, and the area around Lake Superior is added to the Northwest Territory.

Looking forward to another good TL ..... do not worry, will not be graded on grammar or spelling !!!!

Quasi-War III

Chapter 1 - The Calm Before the Storm - April 1829

The Alamo, US Military Fortress and Supply Depot

Near San Antonio de Bexar, capital of the US state of Tejas

General Andrew Jackson had quite enough of his insubordinate subordinates. Granted, the General had dueled enough in his days and didn't see why, in peacetime, men couldn't be allowed to kill one another if they damn well pleased (in a fair fight). However, Jackson had expressly forbidden dueling between officers.

Further depressing his mood, as a select group of guards trailed warily behind their legendary commander, was the fact that Jackson had just turned sixty-two. Granted, that was an accomplishment in itself. People seldom lived long. But this was his first birthday without his beloved Rachel, whom died a year ago. Lacking anything better to do (Jackson had been defeated in the 1824 caucus for the Union Party nomination), Jackson remained in the service. Oddly, President Adams had been happy to keep the old man in uniform. Jackson suspected the prissy Massachusetts bastard just wanted to keep a rival out of the way. All kinds of excuses were made up to send Jackson to the ass-end of American territory and beyond. Once, Adams had even sent Jackson on a DIPLOMATIC mission to the Republic of the Sierra Madre Oriental. If assigning Jackson to a diplomatic team wasn't damning evidence of Adam's perfidiousness, even to a nation he had been integral to forming and regarded him as a national hero, Jackson didn't know what was. However, forcing Jackson on an "auditing mission" to Tejas, the place he hated most on earth, may have been the final straw. Even as he trod inexorably (and painfully) towards the supposed site of the upcoming duel, Jackson contemplated retirement from the service. Perhaps he could make another run at the Presidency in 1832, or even find a young bride and perhaps sire an heir. However, the old soldier suspected he was too old for either pursuit.

Though America had come out well in the last war, gaining Guyana, East and West Florida, the Louisiana Territory and Tejas, and claimed Spanish territory all the way to California (Russia, Britain, Spain and several native nations demurred to accept this), the nation's troubles appeared to be only beginning. The southern states had been raising holy hell about slavery, as always. Jackson was well and truly sick of the issue. He'd emancipate all the slaves tomorrow if he never had to hear about it again. Born in North Carolina, he'd been raised with the institution and never thought twice about it until the slave rebellions inspired by the damn French. Plainly, slavery was a threat to the nation. Jackson didn't like threats to the nation.

Jackson also didn't like insubordination. Arriving at the supposed dueling site, the old man emitted a low growl at the sight of a half-dozen startled participants, most of which paled at the approach of the furious senior officer.

God damn all Irishmen! The fact that Jackson was of Irish descent himself did little to reduce the vehemence of the thought. We never should have accepted foreign officers into our ranks!

Colonel Blossett was a Dublin-born Protestant of ancient Huguenot descent. Reportedly his grandfather or great-grandfather had helped William and Mary reconquer Ireland. Like many British officers after the Napoleonic Wars(as the wars were now commonly termed), Blossett found himself pensioned off on half-pay by His Majesty and looking for work. With so many American officers returning home with the peace, even the much-reduced American Army was short on officers. As an ally, Blossett was offered a position on the General Staff, later being offered a Regiment in Tejas.

His opposite member in the duel was Colonel Mackenna, an Irish Catholic whom had served Spain during the war, and similarly dismissed after the conflict ended. An engineer by trade, America swiftly accepted his services. The Military Academy at West Point was churning out a few engineers a year but the Army, which paid relatively poorly, had trouble keeping them. With the US expanding westward and investment in infrastructure projects high, the engineers (whom tended to be considered "lesser" than their infantry and cavalry colleagues) were often hired away for large salaries. Mackenna was gratefully accepted and put to work building several fortifications in Tejas and other western locations.

Unfortunately, the ancient rivalry between Protestant and Catholic Irishmen had only intensified after the liberation of the Island in 1811 from British rule. Many Catholics, now the ruling majority, sought revenge for centuries of hurts, predominantly against the Anglicans. Irish emigration to America had surpassed 1 million since the end of the war, if the census was to be believed. Split down the middle between Catholic and Protestant, several of America's eastern cities had been sites of mass gang warfare between factions bringing their feuds with them to a new land. Streetfights were bad enough, but duels between American officers! This was unacceptable.

"Colonel Blossett! Colonel Mackenna," Jackson snapped, both officers and their witnessed instinctively stood to attention. The old man barely noticed that the two men had unfired pistols in their hands "Did I, or did I not, order this stupid duel to be cancelled and for you idiots to sit down and apologize to one another for your conduct?"

It was Mackenna whom unwisely spoke. "General! Surely you see that this is a matter of personal honor..."

Very unwisely spoke.

"Guards!" Jackson bellowed. "Confiscate these pistols and escort these officers back to their quarters. They are to be confined until a hearing is convened to review their conduct."

Their protests were silenced with a harsh glare. All six officers soon allowed themselves to be led away, leaving Jackson alone in disgust. Waiting long enough for the men to disappear out of his sight. No wonder most of America thinks Irishmen are idiots!

Not interested in returning to the barracks, Jackson quietly listened to the breeze blowing through the prairie. Had it not been for his dismal experiences in the last war in this land, he might have considered settling down here, finding a nice fifteen year old girl and give procreating another try. But instead, all he could recall was the blood, the heat (soon to return with summer) and the god-awful sand and dust. No, he would never settle down here. Besides, he was an old man. He'd be dead soon anyway, or so he prayed. Without Rachel, there just didn't seem to be any point.

Waiting long enough to be sure he wouldn't have to encounter his idiot subordinates again, Jackson presently made off for the Alamo, now less of a barracks as a storage depot for more important fortresses stretching into the vastness of the American west. He'd been walking along the dusty road for a few minutes when a carriage emerged from the west. Jackson's weathered features brightened slightly when he recognized the driver. Erasmo Seguin's family had been in Tejas years before the American takeover. The man proved quite supportive of the new regime provided the Spanish and Mestizos were treated as equals. There was still friction with the Angos that eventually flooded in but many of the old families were still prominent, the Seguins among them. Along with huge migrations of Americans rushing west, Europeans were attracted to the vast Tejas plains in hopes of escaping poverty, Negroes tried to get as far away from the southern states as possible and migrants from the former colonies of New Spain (and some remaining colonies the Spanish Empire) flowed northward. Tejas had become a remarkable crossroads of varying cultures and languages. Germans, Poles, English, Irish, Negroes, Latinos, everyone was represented already.

Tipping his cap, Seguin nodded, "Good day to you, General."

Jackson recalled that Seguin possessed several victualing contracts with the local barracks. What he couldn't provide from his sprawling hacienda, he would procure and sell to the fortifications (no doubt at a reasonable profit).

"And good do to you, Mr. Seguin." The man's English, though accented, was probably better than poorly educated Jackson's. "What brings you out this way?"

Beaming, Seguin pointed westward, "My niece gave birth to a fine son a few weeks ago. We had his Christening today."

"My congratulations, sir. What is the boy's name?"

"Ignacio Zaragoza." He pronounced it "E'nasio sara yosa".

"How wonderful, sir, my best to mother and son."

"My thanks. Would the general care for a ride back to the Alamo?"

Intending to decline, Jackson's sore feet countermanded the order. "Yes, Mr. Seguin, I would."

He climbed up into the carriage and the pair returned to the ancient mission fort in companionable silence. Upon returning to his offices, he was informed that President Adams had recalled Jackson to Washington at once. Evidently, there was trouble of some type in Washington. Glad to escape Tejas before the summer, Jackson departed two days later.

He wondered what could be so damned important as to bring his "audit" to such a sudden conclusion.

Would like to see a map or maps so that fans will know what the USA looks like at this time as well as the other polities of North America or the Americas. Would also like to see a map of Europe as well as a global map.

hzn5pk said:

Here we go again ..... awesome

What are the 23 states by 1828? A list following original 13, plus Vermont, Kentucky, Tennessee, Huron, Louisiana, and what five others ..... would be great plus what are the US territories ...... Thank you

Maine has broken off of Massachusetts right? - more votes for Union party, and their are two distinct cultures for Maine and Mass. If Maine did breakaway, what is the border situation with British New Brunswick? Perhaps the USA is in a more favorable situation, can throw some money at it.

Were Alabama and Mississippi admitted as two states or one? Or they can be two states going from North to South ....

Huron is the entire Upper Canada or just the populated area of OTL southwest Ontario, and the area around Lake Superior is added to the Northwest Territory.

Looking forward to another good TL ..... do not worry, will not be graded on grammar or spelling !!!!

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We had the original 13 states.

Then, in my last TL, I had Vermont, Ohio, Kentucky and Tennesse already added by the end of the War of 1812.

I'm assuming that Huron, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Louisiana and Tejas had been added by 1829.

The next states up appear to be East Florida, (OTL Florida without the panhandle), West Florida (Florida Panhandle and southern half of Mississippi and Alabama) and a tbd state consisting of the northern half of Alabama and Mississippi. I will explore this topic in detail in future chapters (this is one of the problems that Jackson was being recalled to deal with) as these will become the battlegrounds for the extension of slavery. It will be a primary subplot.

Alt History Buff said:

I'm assuming that Huron, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Louisiana and Tejas had been added by 1829.

The next states up appear to be East Florida, (OTL Florida without the panhandle), West Florida (Florida Panhandle and southern half of Mississippi and Alabama) and a tbd state consisting of the northern half of Alabama and Mississippi. I will explore this topic in detail in future chapters (this is one of the problems that Jackson was being recalled to deal with) as these will become the battlegrounds for the extension of slavery. It will be a primary subplot.

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I was thinking about this myself for this TL (which I continue to enjoy, by the way), especially as I was re-reading my copy of How the States Got Their Shapes on the plane this weekend. One of the things that book makes a point of is the long-lasting general goal of making newly admitted states roughly equal--either to existing states or to other states admitted around the same time. I was thinking about this primarily with regards to Tejas, Huron, and the region that IOTL is Mississippi and Alabama.

Huron: I don't recall if this was stated, but I'd sort of expect Huron to just be southern Ontario as others have mentioned--it'd put it very much in the character of other "Old Northwest" states like Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana, and the unsettled northern areas of the Huron territory could be spun off as part of a new territory (Hudson Territory?) to later be divided into what likely become Dakota or Minnesota-type (and sized) states with lower population density.

Tejas: With it being a war conquering, not an (admittedly brief) independent nation entering, I'd expect Tejas to be a smaller state, probably no larger than OTL Missouri, with remaining areas spun off into other states. I'm debating if they might try and cut it so that the three major cities of OTL were split between two states--they often seemed to try and share population centers when possible when subdividing a large territory to encourage diversified economies.

An example of this--and relevant to your post--is the OTL Mississippi/Florida split. I don't have my copy of How the States Got Their Shapes right in front of me, but basically the north/south dividing lie was chosen because it gave each a roughly equal section of coastline, while also giving each roughly equal portions of farmland and mineral resources located in the Norther portion. An east/west cut (like the Dakotas got out West) does sort of the opposite--it gives one all the coastline and the other all the farm and hill lands. That's sort of not how they did things, so it's a division I doubt, though I know it's an AH staple.

e of pi said:

I was thinking about this myself for this TL (which I continue to enjoy, by the way), especially as I was re-reading my copy of How the States Got Their Shapes on the plane this weekend. One of the things that book makes a point of is the long-lasting general goal of making newly admitted states roughly equal--either to existing states or to other states admitted around the same time. I was thinking about this primarily with regards to Tejas, Huron, and the region that IOTL is Mississippi and Alabama.

Huron: I don't recall if this was stated, but I'd sort of expect Huron to just be southern Ontario as others have mentioned--it'd put it very much in the character of other "Old Northwest" states like Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana, and the unsettled northern areas of the Huron territory could be spun off as part of a new territory (Hudson Territory?) to later be divided into what likely become Dakota or Minnesota-type (and sized) states with lower population density.

Tejas: With it being a war conquering, not an (admittedly brief) independent nation entering, I'd expect Tejas to be a smaller state, probably no larger than OTL Missouri, with remaining areas spun off into other states. I'm debating if they might try and cut it so that the three major cities of OTL were split between two states--they often seemed to try and share population centers when possible when subdividing a large territory to encourage diversified economies.

An example of this--and relevant to your post--is the OTL Mississippi/Florida split. I don't have my copy of How the States Got Their Shapes right in front of me, but basically the north/south dividing lie was chosen because it gave each a roughly equal section of coastline, while also giving each roughly equal portions of farmland and mineral resources located in the Norther portion. An east/west cut (like the Dakotas got out West) does sort of the opposite--it gives one all the coastline and the other all the farm and hill lands. That's sort of not how they did things, so it's a division I doubt, though I know it's an AH staple.

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Good points:

As for Huron (Ontario), is mainly makes up the Peninsular portion. At this point, the Hudson Territory was so sparsely populated that it would be doomed to remain a territory probably forever.

As for Tejas, I believe that Spanish Tejas (or New Philippines as it was briefly called) was originally a bit smaller than OTL State of Texas. I'll probably make it smaller and keep Tejas only to the more arable half in the Texas Green Zone.

Note that West Florida was originally a Spanish political entity and I'm keeping it that way to explore the differences. I'm seeing Kentucky, Tennessee, the North AL/MS state (I'm thinking Appalachia) and West Florida as being stacked on top of one another, generally equal in size, but east/west in orientation.

I agree that lack of access to the Caribbean would harm North AL/MS but there is a precedent (Kentucky, West Virginia and Tennessee). As northern AL/MS is more hilly/mountainous than southern AL/MS (West Florida), the cultural and economic differences between these two states/territories will become one of my subplots.

Chapter 2 - Teetering on the Brink - June 1812

Washington DC

"...the south will not stand for these constant outraged, Mr. President! If the federal government continues to..."

"...the President of the United States does not received ultimatums from CONGRESSMEN, even the Speak of the House! Vote however you like, but do not believe for a moment that I shall..."

General Alexander Macomb was amused. It was so rare that one was witness to the political equivalent of a tavern brawl between the leader of a nation's executive and that of the lower house of Congress, even through the closed door of President Adams' office. As the Commanding General of American forces, Macomb had been summoned to discuss some of the assorted Indian rebellions out west. The Home Secretary, responsible for maintaining the peace with these "internal nations" was also scheduled to participate.

As if on cue, William Clark arrived where Macomb was seated patiently down the hall from the President's office. Local aides and adjutants glanced anxiously, or angrily, towards the door, shocked at the Speaker's presumption. With a moment's glance, Clark assessed the situation.

"Calhoun again?"

Macomb nodded. Since the southerner had somehow wrangled the speakership by allying with various feuding forces in Congress, John Calhoun of South Carolina had used the Speakership as a bully pulpit to punish any legislator whom dared oppose the institution in any manner, including "impugning southern honor". No doubt the man had made so many enemies that he would be run out of the office on a rail in the next Congressional vote for speaker, but he'd made his presence known since the commencement of his two year term. Factions were hardening. The advent of the cotton gin had given the south, and slavery, new and profitable life. Once though to be dying, slavery survived in an every more brutal form. However, Cotton was a greedy crop, consuming and wearing out land. Southern planters wanted to move west into recently conquered lands. Both President Adams and the Majority of Congress were staunchly against this idea. Politics was getting more heated by the day.

Clark casually sat down next to Macomb. "Is it the tariffs this time that is "Draining the southern lifeblood" or perhaps Adams "Tyranny in the movement of property"?"

"The latter."

"Of course."

Clark had come from Virginia, though he'd spent most of his life in Kentucky or serving in the west. One of the early explorers of the "Louisiana Conquest", the man was a national hero. Macomb, born in New York, made his reputation as a career soldier, an engineer whom won martial fame in the French Wars along Lake Ontario. Macomb hadn't been expected to be selected by President Adams as the commander of the Army. However, Winfield Scott and Edmund Gaines, the leading candidates, were removed from consideration after an embarrassing public feud as they openly jockeyed for the office. Disgusted, President Adams selected Macomb by default. Naturally, Congressman Calhoun decried the choice as Adams putting yet another northerner in high office over two Virginians.

That neither soldier was overly personally attached to slavery hardly mattered in Calhoun's invective. Every piece of legislation somehow had the mark of slavery. An extension of a canal in Ohio? Not if the local congressman voted against extending slavery into East Florida! An appointment to a vacant Maine customs position? Not unless the local Senator supported Calhoun's Runaway Slave Act, with no limit to the retroactive date. Positions hardened.

"When will Jackson return?"

Macomb shrugged. Tejas was a long ways off. It may be weeks. The soldier hadn't been offended with his nominal subordinate was summoned home. Things in the south were getting worse. Many customs officials were refusing to implement the protective tariffs. Adams wouldn't allow this. Calhoun was offered a compromise and rejected it. Jackson had no love for Adams but he would be the right man to enforce discipline on anyone. Clark had been grateful to keep Jackson away from the Indians. Jackson would no doubt wipe out any opposition.

Presently, Calhoun threw open the door to the President's office and stormed out. When an aide poked his head gingerly into Adams sanctum, he received a cursory shout, "Yes, yes, send them in. I don't have all day to stew. Business must be done."

Grudgingly, Macomb and Clark entered the President's office. There were many issues to discuss. Some of the plains Indians of the Dakotas were proving quite hostile. Approval from Congress for the completion of the (overbudget) Niagara Canal still had not been received. Governor Austin in the Territory of California continued to complain about harassment from Spanish, Russian and New Galician vessels, all the while the British did not seem to have given up their rights to the northwest, as the Anglo-American Treaty implied (to American Sensibilities). And the application of several western and southern territories for future statehood had been received. Most were not ready but no doubt would within a decade.

It was East and West Florida that concerned Macomb and Clark the most. In spite of specific laws forbidding it, many plantations with men and women in bondage had sprung up across these lands. Southerners like Calhoun were pointing to this as evidence that "Popular Sovereignty had spoken!" Macomb knew damned well John Quincy Adams would not back down on this issue. Rumors abound that the southern militias were drilling an uncomfortably high number of times, usually it was a problem to get militia to do anything at all.

It did not bode well for the nation that perhaps the most stubborn and uncompromising men in America held the two foremost positions of power.

Unless one counted General Jackson, Macomb conceded. He was more stubborn than Adams and Calhoun combined.

West Florida, Mississippi and Apalachia will be good states joined by Tennessee and Kentucky going from South to North.

Does West Florida also contain the section of OTL Louisiana that are on the east side of the Mississippi. If so, I would imagine that Louisiana may include Arkansas as well, or half of Arkansas to the Arkansas river.

This may be a good way to rewrite states borders.

Maybe the state of Missouri is then between the
Arkansas River to the Missouri River with the Western border as is.

I also would believe that Maine would be its own state due to the cultural differences between Maine and Massachusetts. If it is a strong Union party state, this would be advantageous to pack the senate and electoral college with more Union party people.

John C Calhoun was a strong nationalist in the 1810's and early 1820's. He was a strong proponent of internal improvements. I imagine that the Compromise of 1820 was enough to keep him a nationalist. OTL, it was the high tariffs that made him split with Jackson. In this timeline, with no Missouri Compromise, his nationalist feelings are stripped sooner.

OK, how about the Union party makes a compromise with the southerners to allow slavery in East Florida, West Florida, and Mississippi. Appalachia will be a free state. Allow slavery in these states and have every other state in the Union remain free. Allow slavery in these states, but a high tariff will remain. By the abolitionists it will be known as the Tariff of Abominations. Or have it the other way, extremely low tariff but no slavery outside the original five states. Calhoun and the southerners get a choice, they cannot have both.

Also, I forget, what is the policy for the tribes of the Southeast (Cherokee, Creek, Chickasaw, Seminole, and Choctaw)?

Have they fully integrated in with the European Americans and are citizens, do they have their own reservations, or is it still unclear and they still live as tribes on their ancestrial ground but have adopted many American ways.

And then with that, there are the tribes of the Iroquois and Huron nations and the tribes in OTL Midwest

What is the fate of these tribes?

Alt History Buff said:

blah blah blah Quasi War III

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Here's a thought: the northern Appalachia state will be placed astride the location of four of the five civilized tribes, as it was known. Would it be better to have that state become Oklahoma (or Oklahumma, as Anglicization doesn't seem to be occuring ITTL. see: Tejas) The word is derived from the Choctaw phrase which means red people. It would be appropriate for them, especially as there hasn't seemed to have been a relocation of the native tribes in the East.

The Cherokee word for "red" is Gigage (Gigagia?) and "native" is simply Nayehiya. I think you can anglicize the one for "home" as Owenasa/Owenahsah. That's the one I can find most easily.

From what I can tell about the Native lands at the time of the removal, a majority of Creek, Choctaw, and Chickasaw lands would be within the upper state, and a large portion of Cherokee land would be there as well.

Dear God, for the next decade or two, California and the Indian Wars are gonna be logistical nightmares. With a less anti-Indian (as far as I can see) U.S. and a friendlier Britain, though, both could be solved nonviolently. Tell the Indians that they can either follow the example of the Iroquois or else... And California can be an agreement between Britain and the U.S. We give you basing/Oregon Territory or something similar and they help the U.S. protect the coast from Russia and New Galacia.
The brewing civil war does not look promising for the South. Even without the massive disparity of OTL, here there's less support and the U.S. could ask Britain for help in blockading. Besides, here the South is surrounded on three sides right off the bat, and the war will probably be a year of militia holding here, the Regulars carving out chunks of the South there, and then complete collapse. Without a Mexican War analogue, there's no superior officer class for the South to draw upon, decreasing Southern chances even more.

I think that the USA can fend off both the Russians and the Mexicans for California without the aid of the British, ceding any claims to Britaim.

Yes, agreements can be made for British basing rights, but the USA does not have to give up its claim to Oregon or to that of OTL BC.

Just like the USA is expanding west, the Russians are expanding East

A build up in American navy with bases in San Diego and San Francisco will be enough to protect California from Russia. Russia's Pacific fleet cannot be much. Russia has not even conquered outer Manchuria at this time

Allowing Britain to have basing rights in Sonora, Baja Cali, and Cali will go further to protect the West Coast. Britain will also share steam power sooner with the USA, resulting in the river-trail system to connect Pacific Coast with Missouri and Tejas.

Conestoga Wagon trains and Clipper ships will form a supply caravan across the Sante Fe trail as well from Tejas. The Oregon and California trail will also be blazed a little earlier as these areas will be opened up to settlement and will the valleys of Sacramento, San Joaquin, and the Willamette be farming centers. After these farmers, one of them is likely to find some gold in the Sacramento Valley sooner or later spurring the California gold rush sooner than later.

Ultimately, the number of American settlers will make the matter a mute point and California and the Pacific Northwest will be American.

For Nueva Galicia, the USA will either engage in diplomacy with individuals that want peace or keep the political situation in turmoil by supporting opposition factions.

The USA will maintain excellent relations with Sierra Madre Oriental. Regular troops will be moved to Sonora. In fact, the USA might encourage SMO to annex Nueva Galicia to solidify USA territory of OTL Sonora and Chihuahua.

The fate of Mexico, Central America, and South America is still in question. Will larger nations form or will it be the smaller states that prevail. The USA is likely to be caught up in this.

Indians to the trails will be the main threat. For this like OTL, US forts will be established along the supply routes. US Calvary will be the dominate service.

USA infantry will man territorial forts in Sonora and Chihuahua to protect California.

To settle slavery,

option 1 is diplomacy and compromise. Low tarrifs for no slavery expansion. Or, Indian removal from Southeast for no slavery in these territories.

Option 2 - send Jackson to the Floridas, Apalachia or Oklahoma and the territory in between and wipe it out. This will enrage Georgia and the Carolinas, but it will end the question of expansion all together.

Unionist sentiment in those states will be strong as well. So a pro South and pro Union elements in the remaining five slave states will battle each other first.

Luminous said:

Here's a thought: the northern Appalachia state will be placed astride the location of four of the five civilized tribes, as it was known. Would it be better to have that state become Oklahoma (or Oklahumma, as Anglicization doesn't seem to be occuring ITTL. see: Tejas) The word is derived from the Choctaw phrase which means red people. It would be appropriate for them, especially as there hasn't seemed to have been a relocation of the native tribes in the East.

The Cherokee word for "red" is Gigage (Gigagia?) and "native" is simply Nayehiya. I think you can anglicize the one for "home" as Owenasa/Owenahsah. That's the one I can find most easily.

From what I can tell about the Native lands at the time of the removal, a majority of Creek, Choctaw, and Chickasaw lands would be within the upper state, and a large portion of Cherokee land would be there as well.

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The status of the Indian Reservations, especially in the east will be a major subplot. I would think that these 5 Nations would provide a natural barrier to South Carolinan and Georgian expansion westward, which is something President Adams would be happy to see.

Roland Traveler said:

Dear God, for the next decade or two, California and the Indian Wars are gonna be logistical nightmares. With a less anti-Indian (as far as I can see) U.S. and a friendlier Britain, though, both could be solved nonviolently. Tell the Indians that they can either follow the example of the Iroquois or else... And California can be an agreement between Britain and the U.S. We give you basing/Oregon Territory or something similar and they help the U.S. protect the coast from Russia and New Galacia.
The brewing civil war does not look promising for the South. Even without the massive disparity of OTL, here there's less support and the U.S. could ask Britain for help in blockading. Besides, here the South is surrounded on three sides right off the bat, and the war will probably be a year of militia holding here, the Regulars carving out chunks of the South there, and then complete collapse. Without a Mexican War analogue, there's no superior officer class for the South to draw upon, decreasing Southern chances even more.

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Note that there was a long Quasi-War from 1796 to 1812 which saw a far greater number of Americans fighting than OTL. There would be plenty of Americans with battle experience (Macomb, Jackson, Scott, Gaines, Pike, etc).

hzn5pk said:

I think that the USA can fend off both the Russians and the Mexicans for California without the aid of the British, ceding any claims to Britaim.

Yes, agreements can be made for British basing rights, but the USA does not have to give up its claim to Oregon or to that of OTL BC.

Just like the USA is expanding west, the Russians are expanding East

A build up in American navy with bases in San Diego and San Francisco will be enough to protect California from Russia. Russia's Pacific fleet cannot be much. Russia has not even conquered outer Manchuria at this time

Allowing Britain to have basing rights in Sonora, Baja Cali, and Cali will go further to protect the West Coast. Britain will also share steam power sooner with the USA, resulting in the river-trail system to connect Pacific Coast with Missouri and Tejas.

Conestoga Wagon trains and Clipper ships will form a supply caravan across the Sante Fe trail as well from Tejas. The Oregon and California trail will also be blazed a little earlier as these areas will be opened up to settlement and will the valleys of Sacramento, San Joaquin, and the Willamette be farming centers. After these farmers, one of them is likely to find some gold in the Sacramento Valley sooner or later spurring the California gold rush sooner than later.

Ultimately, the number of American settlers will make the matter a mute point and California and the Pacific Northwest will be American.

For Nueva Galicia, the USA will either engage in diplomacy with individuals that want peace or keep the political situation in turmoil by supporting opposition factions.

The USA will maintain excellent relations with Sierra Madre Oriental. Regular troops will be moved to Sonora. In fact, the USA might encourage SMO to annex Nueva Galicia to solidify USA territory of OTL Sonora and Chihuahua.

The fate of Mexico, Central America, and South America is still in question. Will larger nations form or will it be the smaller states that prevail. The USA is likely to be caught up in this.

Indians to the trails will be the main threat. For this like OTL, US forts will be established along the supply routes. US Calvary will be the dominate service.

USA infantry will man territorial forts in Sonora and Chihuahua to protect California.

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Yes, I see this as the route west. Fifteen years after the events of the previous threads, America is still trying to digest the tripling of their country. There are still huge swathes of land open for exploitation.

Until the railroads are built, I imagine that the west will be vulnerable to any number of threats, though the demographics will always favor the US in the end.

hzn5pk said:

West Florida, Mississippi and Apalachia will be good states joined by Tennessee and Kentucky going from South to North.

Does West Florida also contain the section of OTL Louisiana that are on the east side of the Mississippi. If so, I would imagine that Louisiana may include Arkansas as well, or half of Arkansas to the Arkansas river.

This may be a good way to rewrite states borders.

Maybe the state of Missouri is then between the
Arkansas River to the Missouri River with the Western border as is.

I also would believe that Maine would be its own state due to the cultural differences between Maine and Massachusetts. If it is a strong Union party state, this would be advantageous to pack the senate and electoral college with more Union party people.

John C Calhoun was a strong nationalist in the 1810's and early 1820's. He was a strong proponent of internal improvements. I imagine that the Compromise of 1820 was enough to keep him a nationalist. OTL, it was the high tariffs that made him split with Jackson. In this timeline, with no Missouri Compromise, his nationalist feelings are stripped sooner.

OK, how about the Union party makes a compromise with the southerners to allow slavery in East Florida, West Florida, and Mississippi. Appalachia will be a free state. Allow slavery in these states and have every other state in the Union remain free. Allow slavery in these states, but a high tariff will remain. By the abolitionists it will be known as the Tariff of Abominations. Or have it the other way, extremely low tariff but no slavery outside the original five states. Calhoun and the southerners get a choice, they cannot have both.

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Honestly, I completely forgot about Maine. That should have been included. I may add in a blurb on that being the next state. Note that in OTL, one of Maine's reasons for seeking statehood was that Massachusetts didn't defend it in the War of 1812. Due to the geographic separation, I would think Maine was always destined for statehood but this was the clincher.

I don't think John Quincy Adams would feel the need to compromise on the expansion of slavery, not when 3/4 of the states in the union are opposed.

Appalachia would be more likely to be a free state than either East or West Florida (if the national government would allow them to choose, which Adams won't).

Yes, Calhoun was in favor of internal improvements but I suspect the arguments over tariffs (which benefit industrial states while raising prices in agricultural states) and, of course, the increasing isolation over slavery, would force an early change in Carolina politics.

He'll be a major character going forward.

hzn5pk said:

Also, I forget, what is the policy for the tribes of the Southeast (Cherokee, Creek, Chickasaw, Seminole, and Choctaw)?

Have they fully integrated in with the European Americans and are citizens, do they have their own reservations, or is it still unclear and they still live as tribes on their ancestrial ground but have adopted many American ways.

And then with that, there are the tribes of the Iroquois and Huron nations and the tribes in OTL Midwest

What is the fate of these tribes?

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The "Five Civilized Tribes" have all received large reservations under Constitutional auspices, as have the Iroquois of the north, partially as a reward for their services against the French in the last war. Both President Adams and Home Secretary Clark are in favor of the reservation system. The plains Indians continue to present a problem to further expansion. I don't see how conflict can be avoided there.

In OTL, Clark was sympathetic to the tribes but was ordered by President Jackson to complete some of the more brutal roundups in American history when he was Indian commissioner. These remain among the most controversial legacies of their service to the country.

I'll go further into this in future chapters as the location of the Indian reservations are considered Federal property and can't be sold. Also, the southern reservations are "Slave Free" and provide a natural barrier to expansion into the west by southern plantation owners. This will be part of a subplot later.