DBWI-Kriegsmarine gets battleships

So, I just read the book The Naval History of World War 2 and came across the design for Germany's aborted Bismarck-class battleship. What do you think would happen if the Kriegsmarine built actual battleships? IOTL, the biggest warships they built were the Deutschland-class "pocket battleships".

Nothing good would happen; waste of resources for a giant glorified target. Building that, whilst perhaps diverting funds for that atrocious Messerschmitt-Maus, would still have been a vacuum of funds and Germany would have still lost the war in late '45.

Fleet in Being...

Given German capital ship design, they're likely short legged North Sea and Baltic ships. They can contest the British occupation of Norway, and tie down a decent sized fleet to overmatch them--perhaps 25% more ships, to allow for dockyard time--this helps Japan by keeping some of the Royal Navy in home waters.

If Germany builds oversized commerce raiders, it helps Japan even more. A mere 3-5 battleships can keep who knows how many British and American capital ships tied down on convoy escort--probably keep 10-15 ships occupied. (And the capital ship escorts are prime targets for subs, mines, aircraft, and more.)

(I know that Britain would want to build more ships, even though too many AH writers assume that one side or the other doesn't change their plans based on what the other side does. But Britain's stretched thin, and can only afford so much new construction. They might need to delay refits like the big one the Hood got in '39 to keep more ships in service...might even have ships sitting in port because their engines won't run because a refit was postponed too far...)

I know Turtledove wrote that short story a while back involving German BBs... What was it called, Hunt the Bismarck or something like that?

Decent story, what with the big hunt for the ship after she annihilated Hood. What do y'all think of the plausibility for that, Germany trying to break Battleships out into the open Atlantic?

Battleships are cool! Battleships would have made sealion possible, as they could have slaughter the british fleet, cos all the German stuff was better.

That would have been a horrible mistake like the one they made in WW1 building even more BBs during the war. Its nothing but a huge resource sink of high quality metals and skilled labor when it all was better spent elsewhere. IIRC it would have cost more than all of the rail road artillery pieces German built under Hitler's regime.

It might have worked...

If Germany had laid down at least four at the same time, built them as quickly as possible and then gone to war as soon as they were ready, then they could have held a significant qualitative advantage over the RN's battle fleet. This requires that the British government dithers about new RN construction, such that the tsunami of new RN construction is still sitting in dock being built while the Bismarcks are blockading in the Western Approaches. Without new construction, only Hood can catch them. I know she was a lucky ship with a great crew, but her armour is a bit WW1-ish and I think she's vulnerable at closish ranges.

Actually, on second thoughts, I'm not sure the speed really matters. If the Bismarcks want a decisive battle, then they need to engage the RN, at which point their speed advantage is worth a lot less. In terms of firepower and armour, the Nelsons should be competitive, and there's a lot of QEs and Rs out there. And of course, if Germany doesn't have the resources to build these ships before the RN gets its KGVs, with their more and bigger guns, in the water, which seems quite likely, then the entire gamble has failed.

torten said:

Battleships are cool! Battleships would have made sealion possible, as they could have slaughter the british fleet, cos all the German stuff was better.

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Until the Royal Navy unleashes their carriers on the Germans..

Whoops, let me put it in a language you'll understand.

Unteel de Royul Navee uhnleeshez ther kareeurz on de Jurmuns.

shiftygiant said:

Nothing good would happen; waste of resources for a giant glorified target. Building that, whilst perhaps diverting funds for that atrocious Messerschmitt-Maus, would still have been a vacuum of funds and Germany would have still lost the war in late '45.

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Ahh that Germany lost the war in 1945 myth.

I ask you why the German Empire stretches from the Saar and Upper Rhine to the Düna an Dnjepr with a chain of allied states in the east of that. Emperor Georg Friedrich is also a Romanow, so could rightfully lay claim to the Russian Republic.

Wilhelm (III) was a different man from his father. After the lost first Great War he accepted that the HIGH SEAS had no place for Germany (well what is beneath the surface ... ).

It is the Army and airforce that win wars - so when the Army took Leningrad in 1943 and Moscow in 1944 it was only logical to make peace with the Russian Anti Bolshevik Coalition. With no chance to invade american backed Britain (at a reasonable cost) it was logical to ask for terms in the west...

Well resources poured into the Reichsmarine (other than sub raiders) might have translated in less tanks and planes when the Soviets attacked the Empire and its Polish allies...

Richter von Manthofen said:

Ahh that Germany lost the war in 1945 myth.

I ask you why the German Empire stretches from the Saar and Upper Rhine to the Düna an Dnjepr with a chain of allied states in the east of that. Emperor Georg Friedrich is also a Romanow, so could rightfully lay claim to the Russian Republic.

Wilhelm (III) was a different man from his father. After the lost first Great War he accepted that the HIGH SEAS had no place for Germany (well what is beneath the surface ... ).

It is the Army and airforce that win wars - so when the Army took Leningrad in 1943 and Moscow in 1944 it was only logical to make peace with the Russian Anti Bolshevik Coalition. With no chance to invade american backed Britain (at a reasonable cost) it was logical to ask for terms in the west...

Well resources poured into the Reichsmarine (other than sub raiders) might have translated in less tanks and planes when the Soviets attacked the Empire and its Polish allies...

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IC:Oh, look, another brainwashed citizen of the Reich remnant on Heligoland has jooned our site. I wonder how long you'll last before being banned for screaming about untermenschen.


OOC:Seriously, why do you have to turn every WWII DBWI into a "Germany Wins" scenario even when it contradicts previous posts?

Lost Freeway said:

So, I just read the book The Naval History of World War 2 and came across the design for Germany's aborted Bismarck-class battleship. What do you think would happen if the Kriegsmarine built actual battleships? IOTL, the biggest warships they built were the Deutschland-class "pocket battleships".

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I'm not convinced that a German Battleship would be able to match one of the new Allied Builds

Germany had no legacy of Heavy capital ship building and did not have the bonus of learnings from post WW1 that Britain and the USA had.

I imagine that the designs would undoubtidly be fast and heavily armoured but would be massively inefficient for the actual tonnage used.

The KGVs with their 12 x 14" guns and and the French Richalous with their 8 x 15" would have been more than a match as they proved vs the 'better' modern Italian Battleships at Matapan and other engagements and from 42 - 43 onwards the 9 x 16" armed US monsters were also better ships in every regard to the German Design.

No all they could have done is probably sat in the Baltic threatneing a break out to attack the northern Artic Convoys and tie down British, French and US Fast Battleships as well as several Aircraft carriers and Cruisers that would be far more useful in the Med and then the Far East.

LOL can you imagine the British Sending a couple of Battleships and say a single Carrier to Singapore in late 41 rather than the large fleet they sent in TTL!!!

Doesn't bear thinking about

Cryhavoc101 said:

The KGVs with their 12 x 14" guns and and the French Richalous with their 8 x 15" would have been more than a match as they proved vs the 'better' modern Italian Battleships at Matapan and other engagements and from 42 - 43 onwards the 9 x 16" armed US monsters were also better ships in every regard to the German Design.

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The battleships may get all the credit, but it was the aircraft carriers that ended up destroying the Regia Marina.

No all they could have done is probably sat in the Baltic threatneing a break out to attack the northern Artic Convoys and tie down British, French and US Fast Battleships as well as several Aircraft carriers and Cruisers that would be far more useful in the Med and then the Far East.

LOL can you imagine the British Sending a couple of Battleships and say a single Carrier to Singapore in late 41 rather than the large fleet they sent in TTL!!!

Doesn't bear thinking about

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If the Royal Navy does worse in the Pacific Theater, then the war over there is gonna be extended. The first atom bomb might actually be used against Japan-as opposed to OTL, where it was used on the Soviets to get them out of eastern Europe after Germany's surrender.