Alternate Automotive Layout Developments?

This is something I've wanted to discuss for a while, and I thought now might be a good time to start.

As some may know, it seems to be rather rare for any TL to try much of a divergence from the OTL evolution of the automobile(four wheeled body, engine connected to a driveshaft, etc.). A couple of Tony Jones' works have tried an exception, Cliveless World in particular; as I recall, one of the most common layouts that eventually became popular ITTL was a three-wheel arrangement in which the vehicle had two wheels on one side, for the driver and passenger, and one wheel on the other (smaller) side, presumably right around where the engine would sit. So that's one example.

What I'm interested to know is if there's any other ideas that you guys can think of; how else might the *car develop, in an alternate world?
 
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Stability...

Three wheels is a less stable arrangement in general, leading, in general, to slower cars. That is a good thing for keeping trains and streetcars going, but it shouldn't take long to add another wheel. So many different things have been tried with motorcars that I'd be surprised if a better layout comes up. Kudos if you find one.

There might be some options in propulsion, if cars stay short ranged--especially if some arrangement is developed to allow people to recharge their cars while they're parked downtown.
 
I've been burned a bit recently by over-enthusiasm with respect to technological speculation. That said, at some point in my timeline I want to really explore what could happen differently with respect to the internal combustion engine. For example, it seems like there could be a kind of legacy technological relationship with respect to coaches, carrying over from the days of animal propulsion to mechanical propulsion. We are used to thinking of an engine and passenger compartment on a common chassis, but what if instead you had a base technology of coaches and attachable engines?

So let's say you have the Roth family of Bayern, who want at some point in the recent past to vacation in Norway to see the scenic fjords. "Ach, Norwegen!"

With OTL automotive technology, they would drive to Jutland, then perhaps take a ferry across. Or alternately, drive to an airport, fly, and then rent a car.

In ATL automotive technology, they would drive to a local station. There they would disengage the engine, attach their coach to a train pulled by an engine as if it were on rails, and ride a kind of segmented bus composed of their own coach and other coaches to Jutland. There the train of coaches would board a ferry. The engine remains behind after it loads the train on the ferry to make a return trip. The train of coaches travels on the ferry to Oslo, or for the sake of argument, Christiania. There it is unloaded by an engine specific to the purpose, and a service there rents engines, attaching different ones to each coach. The family then drives north on its own scenic tour.

What's gained is some of the efficiency of train travel, with one engine pulling multiple loads in a kind of combination train/tractor trailor/bus. But you also get the versatility of the automobile, with the family on vacation reaching its destination able to split off and travel in their own direction, not having to follow a set of rails, meet a schedule, or sleep while on a moving train (which Mutti just can't do).

The coach would actually be more spacious than the cab of most automobiles. Imagine three benches. The middle is reversible, and can face the rear with leg room for people to face each other. The front is more used for driving when the coach is engaged to its engine. Among the amenities is a folding table buried in the floor that the family can use to eat snacks on, conduct card games, and do homework on the trip.

On its surface you might think, wow, this is really imagining Europeans behaving in a very American way with respect to their internal combustion vehicles, riding around in these things half-SUVs and half-winnebagos. Of course, that's among the many cultural tendencies the timeline deconstructs. It presupposes Europe from a fairly early point having what we would think of as an America-like culture of mass convenience. And by early, I mean from a date where actual rural landlords in Bavaria were trying to pretend they still owned their tenants.

So yeah, my crazy idea is crazy. But is it possible, mechanically? At what point do automobiles become sophisticated enough that attachable and detachable engines would be feasible? Would someone actually think of something like this in the early days of automobile travel, while horses are still lumbering about, dropping piles of manure on the cobblestones? Don't be afraid to break it all down for me really simplistically, I was an English major, and it can be assumed with respect to car mechanics that I know nothing.
 
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Sabot Cat

Banned
Maybe one where the car is laid out more like a go-kart, with the steering wheel in the center?
 
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Sabot Cat

Banned
Erm.....don't most go karts have four wheels, and off to the side, though? :confused:

Ah, sorry: by 'wheel' I meant 'steering wheel'.

Models like these:

product_2.jpg
 
Ah, sorry: by 'wheel' I meant 'steering wheel'.

Models like these:

product_2.jpg

Oh, I see. Well, yeah, that's definitely a possibility. In fact, come to think of it, a configuration very similar to actually did enjoy a little modest success IOTL from what I've read; just before and just after the first World War, "cyclecars" were a popular early interpretation of what we today might call an economy car. The one major drawback, though, was that they tended to be rather Spartan, even for that day and age. Perhaps if these flaws could be minimized a bit, and it's positive points improved on, the cyclecar might have been quite a good bit more successful. Some later models might even look almost exactly like the go-carts of our world; ITTL, perhaps go-carts might just evolve from cyclecars, even. :)

I've been burned a bit recently by over-enthusiasm with respect to technological speculation. That said, at some point in my timeline I want to really explore what could happen differently with respect to the internal combustion engine. For example, it seems like there could be a kind of legacy technological relationship with respect to coaches, carrying over from the days of animal propulsion to mechanical propulsion. We are used to thinking of an engine and passenger compartment on a common chassis, but what if instead you had a base technology of coaches and attachable engines?

So let's say you have the Roth family of Bayern, who want at some point in the recent past to vacation in Norway to see the scenic fjords. "Ach, Norwegen!"

With OTL automotive technology, they would drive to Jutland, then perhaps take a ferry across. Or alternately, drive to an airport, fly, and then rent a car.

In ATL automotive technology, they would drive to a local station. There they would disengage the engine, attach their coach to a train pulled by an engine as if it were on rails, and ride a kind of segmented bus composed of their own coach and other coaches to Jutland. There the train of coaches would board a ferry. The engine remains behind after it loads the train on the ferry to make a return trip. The train of coaches travels on the ferry to Oslo, or for the sake of argument, Christiania. There it is unloaded by an engine specific to the purpose, and a service there rents engines, attaching different ones to each coach. The family then drives north on its own scenic tour.

What's gained is some of the efficiency of train travel, with one engine pulling multiple loads in a kind of combination train/tractor trailor/bus. But you also get the versatility of the automobile, with the family on vacation reaching its destination able to split off and travel in their own direction, not having to follow a set of rails, meet a schedule, or sleep while on a moving train (which Mutti just can't do).

The coach would actually be more spacious than the cab of most automobiles. Imagine three benches. The middle is reversible, and can face the rear with leg room for people to face each other. The front is more used for driving when the coach is engaged to its engine. Among the amenities is a folding table buried in the floor that the family can use to eat snacks on, conduct card games, and do homework on the trip.

On its surface you might think, wow, this is really imagining Europeans behaving in a very American way with respect to their internal combustion vehicles, riding around in these things half-SUVs and half-winnebagos. Of course, that's among the many cultural tendencies the timeline deconstructs. It presupposes Europe from a fairly early point having what we would think of as an America-like culture of mass convenience. And by early, I mean from a date where actual rural landlords in Bavaria were trying to pretend they still owned their tenants.

So yeah, my crazy idea is crazy. But is it possible, mechanically? At what point do automobiles become sophisticated enough that attachable and detachable engines would be feasible? Would someone actually think of something like this in the early days of automobile travel, while horses are still lumbering about, dropping piles of manure on the cobblestones? Don't be afraid to break it all down for me really simplistically, I was an English major, and it can be assumed with respect to car mechanics that I know nothing.

Well, I'm honestly not sure how well much of that would work, but it's still a rather interesting proposition, nonetheless, TBH. :cool:
 
Since Europeans tend to enjoy more organised vacations, a long series of camper trailers, all pulled by one tractor makes sense. You might even schedule to stay two days at this beach, three days at this water-fall, a day at this castle, etc.
On my vacation, I much prefer some-else do the driving and navigation while I sight-see or nap from the back.
 

Driftless

Donor
Since Europeans tend to enjoy more organised vacations, a long series of camper trailers, all pulled by one tractor makes sense. You might even schedule to stay two days at this beach, three days at this water-fall, a day at this castle, etc.
On my vacation, I much prefer some-else do the driving and navigation while I sight-see or nap from the back.

Since this is pre-1900, You hire a steam traction engine, or a slightly early Lombard Log Hauler to serve as your locomotive stand-in. Hook up your train of RV/Coaches and away you go.

Steam Traction Engine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_engine#mediaviewer/File:Traction_engine_exedon_lad.jpg

Lombard Log Hauler:
http://www.bangshift.com/assets/images/news/2009/Jan/25-31/Lombard.jpg
6a00e0099229e88833011168a6533b970c-500wi
 
Semis early?

Perhaps cars might get built much like today's big rigs. The front has 2-3 seats and the engine, and four wheels. The back is attached to the kingpin like a semi-trailer. Costs a bit more, but now the same vehicle is both the family car and a light truck for hauling whatever, depending on what you attach to the back. And, you don't need to bring the back if there's just one or two people.

I could see this as a semi viable design for a period of time.
 
Thanks everyone! This is definitely giving me places to start looking as I think about this.

Now let me see if I can write about the mechanical issues that worry me with greater particularity. So it seems the consensus is that a basic tractor and attachment set-up is feasible. After all, farm life in the industrialized world is unthinkable otherwise. But that's a bit different from what I was originally proposing: it's engine and front wheels as one unit, then cab with the cab as another unit supported by either two or four wheels. The front unit can then be detached and the cab hooked to other cabs pulled by a larger engine.

So these are the mechanical issues as I see it. The places where you would have to have some kind of interface between cab and engine would be at minimum steering column, brakes, gas, ignition. Is it impractical to think of these as being casually connected and disconnected between different machines? Returning to the example of the Roths, would this be the sort of thing Herr Roth could do, his chauffeur (if he was sufficiently wealthy enough to afford one) could do, or a professional mechanic could do? I think in the end that would be the real test.

The more I think about it, the more I think I've answered my own question. It doesn't seem terribly practical. But it's neat enough I want it to be otherwise.
 
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Driftless

Donor
Here's a few alternative configurations from the 19th & 20th century:

Ride behind tractor:
resize.php



Another version:
Rot-E-Taek_hauling_logs.jpg



Motor pusher trailer:
attachment.php


Monowheel:
0b13f5b7efc1c2165c035f40c1b64b34.jpg


One of the granddaddies - 1700's artillery tractor:
car2.jpg


Thompson Steamer:
ThomsonRoadSteamer1.jpg


A Freight hauling Thompson Steamer:
landscapes-thomson-s-road-steamer-and-coal-waggons-antique-print-1870-141942-p.jpg


Hornsby Crawler (A real grandfather to the original Tanks)
sbaldock.jpg


1896 Blinov Crawler
F.A.-Blinov-the-worlds-first-crawler-tractor.gif


1875 L'Obelsantte Steam Bus:
Obeissante.jpg


Goldsworthy Gurney Steam Carriage (the real deal actually worked)
1_IMG_8542.jpg
 
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This set up is interesting, you could see different companies doing the engines and carriages.

What about when you get amenities like air conditioning, radio, and other stuff that needs the engine's power to work? Separate power sources?
 
Perhaps cars might get built much like today's big rigs. The front has 2-3 seats and the engine, and four wheels. The back is attached to the kingpin like a semi-trailer. Costs a bit more, but now the same vehicle is both the family car and a light truck for hauling whatever, depending on what you attach to the back. And, you don't need to bring the back if there's just one or two people.

I could see this as a semi viable design for a period of time.


This is more likely to happen if some form of guild remains as a stronger form of social organization perhaps?

Alternatively, what if European governments got more involved with development for mobilization purposes? The idea is that they subsidize/mandate local "tractors" which can better be converted to war. During conflicts, the tractor has an armored something or other added to it to make it more useful than just a car for military functions.
 

Sior

Banned
Here's a few alternative configurations from the 19th & 20th century:

Ride behind tractor:
resize.php



Another version:
Rot-E-Taek_hauling_logs.jpg



Motor pusher trailer:
attachment.php


Monowheel:
0b13f5b7efc1c2165c035f40c1b64b34.jpg


One of the granddaddies - 1700's artillery tractor:
car2.jpg


Thompson Steamer:
ThomsonRoadSteamer1.jpg


A Freight hauling Thompson Steamer:
landscapes-thomson-s-road-steamer-and-coal-waggons-antique-print-1870-141942-p.jpg


Hornsby Crawler (A real grandfather to the original Tanks)
sbaldock.jpg


1896 Blinov Crawler
F.A.-Blinov-the-worlds-first-crawler-tractor.gif


1875 L'Obelsantte Steam Bus:
Obeissante.jpg


Goldsworthy Gurney Steam Carriage (the real deal actually worked)
1_IMG_8542.jpg


1802 Walter Hancock's 'Enterprise'
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Built by Tom Brogden
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This amazing machine was built using the original drawing's.

The original Enterprise started running in 1833
[/FONT]
enterprise-3.jpg


The original Enterprise started running in 1833, carrying fare paying passengers in London and making occasional trips farther afield. (This is about the time George Stephenson was building the 'Rocket' and the 'railway age' was beginning) It incorporated many of the best features of the time including several of Hancock's own patents such as the artillery wheel. . His method of suspending the vehicle on leaf springs and in particular of locating the rear axle in such a way that it could be driven from an engine within the carriage were very advanced for the time and wouldn't have seemed out of date 100 years later. His use of a steering wheel was novel for the time also. The body was similar to the Shillabeer Omnibus - a successful design of horse drawn vehicle where up to 14 passengers sat in two rows facing each other. The engine had two large, vertical, double acting cylinders in a simple, cleverly arranged frame and could run at up to about 100 rpm. His boiler can best be described as similar to seven modern domestic pressed-steel radiators bolted together with a coke fire underneath them, supplying steam at up to 100 psi (6.1 bar). This arrangement meant that there is less water in the boiler than a conventional boiler and steam can be generated from cold more quickly and the overall weight of the vehicle is lower. Burning coke and using the draught from a fan driven from the crankshaft meant that the exhaust was relatively clean and unobtrusive, unlike Gurney's machines. He favoured the steam blast and burnt coal, producing a fiery exhaust.
enterprise-11.jpg
 
This is more likely to happen if some form of guild remains as a stronger form of social organization perhaps?

Alternatively, what if European governments got more involved with development for mobilization purposes? The idea is that they subsidize/mandate local "tractors" which can better be converted to war. During conflicts, the tractor has an armored something or other added to it to make it more useful than just a car for military functions.

James Beatty is unscathed by his accident on the Crimean railway and it inspires him to invent the overrun brake.

The 'Beatty bogie' is a low platform between two large wheels. It can be drawn safely by anything that can pull a rope, for once the strain is removed, the wheels are locked. A bogie is small enough to be manhandled onto the rails and attached to a train, and drawn away again at the railhead with no need to unload and unload between rail trucks and wagons.

The system is refined and developed during the American Civil War, and some railway companies find good business in drawing bogies that are either supplied by, or hired to, third parties. Someone starts using a traction engine to haul them on the road, and someone else looks at a pair of coupled bogies and begins thinking of batteries and electric motors... :D
 
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You could imagine automobile design going hand in hand with different socio-cultural developments. Frankly, I think its unlikely anything other than the balanced 4 wheel design would evolve in the long term, but how the vehicle is powered and steered could influence location of the steering mechanisms (not necessarily a wheel) and motor, and this could reflect different social systems.

If you imagine a society in which paid (or even unpaid) servants (including drivers) remain common in middle-income strata, the driver of the "family car" might rarely be its principle owner. Family cars might look more like taxis, with a largely contained and small driving compartment separated from a larger and more luxuriously arranged passenger seating area. As this evolves, the driver may be in a separate central "pod" extending over the front wheels with the passenger seating arra arranged in a wide, conversational "u".

Another more radical development might be the driver and engine being co-located in a motive unit connected to the passenger area by an articulated enclosure, something like that on large busses. This would possibly require a six- or eight-wheeled vehicle...something that would be used for long trips perhaps.

Another idea might be to imagine a merging of rail and road travel. Automobiles (perhaps similar to OTL cars) are designed so that they can travel on roadways efficiently, but also quickly transition to railroads with auxialliary train wheels in an unpowered mode. For long distance travel, people drive their cars to the railway station and pay to have their cars hooked onto special locomotive trains for this purpose, and they go on their way, not having to so anything but sit and watch the scenery go by. When they get where they're going, the cars are uncoupled and drive off, while the rest continue on (and others come on board).
 

Driftless

Donor
Control mechanisms could be:
  • Tiller - pretty common on very early autos and some of the steam vehicles)
  • dual sticks (such as on skid-steer loaders, or earlier tanks), but that works with certain power train formats
  • joy stick
  • Brake steering, with forward or reverse being a separate set of controls.
 
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