Plausibility Check: Meritocratic Empire

Just wondering in my head when and where would a meritocratic statal evolution (not revolution as the needed changes are too great) resulting in a militant great/superpower be possible. I may or may not want to start an ASB free timeline with it :p

By which I mean a new power in which:

1. Women, minorities (religious, ethnic, sexual...) and commoners are to be allowed in politics, the professions and the army/navy
2. The role of religion is downplayed (if it contravenes with the above as most religions do esp. pre-1900, if not it can even be strengthened) and
3. The resulting state will have a large, powerful land army with at least a bit of an expansionistic/warmongering streak.
 
In a way, the imperial china was meritocratic in theory or at least semi (look at how becoming a mandarin worked), but with a lot of restrictions and more based on civil services and all this than the army (at least the army never had as much prestige as occidental states). And religions was never that much important.
 
Depends on how meritocratic you want. At points the Roman empire could be very meritocratic-see the Illyrian emperors, many of which (such as Claudius Gothicus for instance) came from families of no social distinction whatsoever. Yet a lot of the times it was more exclusionary.
 
Im imagining a Sparta like state where everything is determined by cutting score, and it sounds hilariously dysfunctional.
 
Sparta wasn't as meritocratic as people think. In theory they were, but it was a lot different in practice.
Yeah, I was more referring to the US military and imagining a slightly comedic hypothetical state.

(Cutting scores are used to determine promotion in the US military, but are considered sort of broken and rather dysfunctional system with inflexible completely arbitrary requirements, which may or may not be actually related to job performance, to determine promotion.

So a nation governed by cutting scores would make decisions based on how many pull-ups you can do, for example. It would be amusing to observe in a civil context at least.)
 
In a way, the imperial china was meritocratic in theory or at least semi (look at how becoming a mandarin worked), but with a lot of restrictions and more based on civil services and all this than the army (at least the army never had as much prestige as occidental states). And religions was never that much important.

Imperial China was highly sexist, and women were expected to be completely subservient to their husbands. The practice of foot-binding severely disabled hundreds of millions of women. That can't be said to be meritocratic.
 
Imperial China was highly sexist, and women were expected to be completely subservient to their husbands. The practice of foot-binding severely disabled hundreds of millions of women. That can't be said to be meritocratic.

as I said, semi- and all this.

I am not sure of the restrictions on who could take imperial examinations, get in the army, temples and this, but in theory everyone (rich probably to a point for the heavy studies for mandarinate, but...) could enters. Maybe.

There was an high sexism for sure, yes, and some nepotism at top ranks, but it was a nation(s) whom for what nobility mattered quite less than in other civilisations when the Imperial System entered.

In a way, it was theorically meritocratic for men, a bit.
 
Even if an empire started out as meritocratic eventually it would drift over time to being more corrupt and nepotistic. The people who are incharge are going to like their power and will do what is necessary to keep it and would probably like to ensure that their children or various family members could be employed the same. And once one person does it others are going to follow if only to not be left behind when others grab more power as a result of having family members or friends in other positions of power.

Also for a long time the commoners could not advance even in a meritocratic system because they would not have the money or free time to devote to advancing themselves to become qualified.
 
1. Women, minorities (religious, ethnic, sexual...) and commoners are to be allowed in politics, the professions and the army/navy
2. The role of religion is downplayed (if it contravenes with the above as most religions do esp. pre-1900, if not it can even be strengthened) and
3. The resulting state will have a large, powerful land army with at least a bit of an expansionistic/warmongering streak.

I think 1) and 3) actually go together. The more 'perilous' a state's situation is, the more likely it is to break down traditional barriers that stop talented people from getting to the top.

I know people have brought up Imperial China as a non-case, but it's worth remembering that even there the 'meritocratic' systems so associated with the regime were only really developed during an extensive period of strife. The early examination system during the Han and Tang had a tendency to get hijacked by the aristocracy; it was only under the chaos of the Five Dynasties and Ten Countries, where attracting talent was everything, that the more meritocratic system under the Song took form.

The best chance of all that happening pre-1900, therefore, is to have this state be situated in a very anarchic environment - where regimes rise and fall with distressing regularity, and where having the best people in charge is thekey to state survival. Realism would also predominate in such a world and thus the role of religion as a determinant of state behaviour would likely decrease, as states realize that barring talent due to religion is a sure-fire way to get destroyed.
 
There's plenty of problems with this:

First of all, in a pre-industrial, pre-gunpowder society, women in the military just does not work on a societal scale. Its just demographically unworkable (imagine if the Roman losses in the Second Punic War were divided equally among men and women; it'd be doomed). So, you could hypothetically have a society that on paper says 'yes, women can be incorporated into the military' without actually following through on it. Thats really the closest you're going to get.

This flows into the next point, that, in most governments throughout history, political power flows directly from the military. Even civil government derives its authority from force. Since the proposition directly calls for a militant expansionist empire, we're tied to that sort of society that explicitly bases itself on the martial virtues. A sex-blind military is not going to work there.

I'd like to go out of order and look at the issue of nepotism. We know that the idea of feudalism has the division of society along those who fight, pray, and work. Well, there's a reason why there's that division and why major empires tend to work with standing armies: Being a militant society generally requires a well trained military that is devoted to that vocation before all else. Look at the Spartans, who famously devoted their entire society to war, rather than agriculture, trade, or any other vocation.

Again, we can look at a feudal societies to really appreciate the challenge: You're a peasant. You have some idea of how to fight, and you might get levied in case of a war. You're little more than cannon fodder, because your skill set is growing crops and tending livestock. Your sons are going to be raised with that same skill set, as a matter of necessity (the whole having food to eat being a powerful motivator). Now, consider a noble (in the era when the nobles were actually regularly engaging in martial matters, as opposed to a Sun King style court). Your whole responsibility in life is to maintain yourself and your companions as able warriors. You've studied war from an early age, you've practiced in the courtyard of your castle, you've accompanied your older relatives on campaigns, and your son is now learning from you. This was your father's job, its your job, and it will be your son's job. You see how this sort of stratified society reinforces itself? Hell, just watch the parts of Game of Thrones that deals with Jon Snow's training on the wall; he's the only recruit who even knows how to handle a sword. Because he's a noble.

You can maintain a comparatively small city-state, even up to a medium sized power, for awhile, on the idea of a citizen army, like most of the Greek poleis and the Roman Republic. But, at a certain point, there needs to be a dedicated military, and that tends towards stratification.

And, of course, it almost needs not be said that a certain level of nepotism is just natural. If you're in a position of authority, and you need to rely on any subordinates, you're prone to want those that you know you can trust and those whose skills you know the best. That tends to be close friends and family.

Now, lets look at the issue of religion. Here, the idea of a anti-religious society (just for shorthand) can be seen as directly opposing the idea of a meritocratic society. To be sure, the clergy were often dominated by the nobility in many different societies (particularly in those societies that had hereditary priesthoods, of course), but they did tend to offer avenues of advancement outside of the idea of military skill being most important for leadership (especially, in the case of Christendom, for women).

So, what can you achieve?

If you want a hyper-meritocrat Empire, your best bet is a mercantile society, not a martial society. Heck, even in martial societies, it was often considered the responsibility of women to manage financial affairs, so their opportunities for equality in a mercantile society are much better. Further, if you want it to be less than zealous, you're in luck. Think of all the religions that tend to frown on the accumulation of wealth. Now, avoiding nepotism... thats hard. In fact, I say its impossible, long term. But, luckily, if its a truly plutocratic society, well, old fortunes tend to be lost quickly by less than merited generations.
 
In a way, the imperial china was meritocratic in theory or at least semi (look at how becoming a mandarin worked), but with a lot of restrictions and more based on civil services and all this than the army (at least the army never had as much prestige as occidental states). And religions was never that much important.

I would say that the Song dynasty is a good example of a meritocratic empire, unfortunately many of its rulers are incompetent when in comes to managing the empire though...
 
I don't know if the Mongols count as a pseudo-meritocratic empire in a sense that they just recruit educated bureaucrats from among their vassals and moved them around their empire. Say, Persian bureaucrats working in a Yuan court or Chinese bureaucrats working in the Golden Horde's court.
 
Imperial China was highly sexist, and women were expected to be completely subservient to their husbands. The practice of foot-binding severely disabled hundreds of millions of women. That can't be said to be meritocratic.

That practice is caused by the whim of a certain crazy Song emperor; are you also saying that Europe including Britain is not sexist !? Are you saying that women in Europe during that time are not subservient to their husbands ?
 
1. Women, minorities (religious, ethnic, sexual...) and commoners are to be allowed in politics, the professions and the army/navy
2. The role of religion is downplayed (if it contravenes with the above as most religions do esp. pre-1900, if not it can even be strengthened) and
3. The resulting state will have a large, powerful land army with at least a bit of an expansionistic/warmongering streak.

Well, aside from "women", this more or less explains various Chinese dynasties since the Qin (as Ubbergeek brought up); also, too a much lesser extent, the Roman Empire.
 
Imperial China was highly sexist, and women were expected to be completely subservient to their husbands. The practice of foot-binding severely disabled hundreds of millions of women. That can't be said to be meritocratic.

Not during Tang dynasty.

And they employ generals/ officials from quite a lot of races, even the high positions.
 
Well, aside from "women", this more or less explains various Chinese dynasties since the Qin (as Ubbergeek brought up); also, too a much lesser extent, the Roman Empire.

Actually, up until the Song, the Chinese examinations system was highly geared towards the aristocracy, especially the massive landed gentry (such as the Simas and the Yuans during the Three Kingdoms period, or the Wangs and Xies during the Eastern Jin), so it wasn't actually a meritocratic system, though a few people of low birth occasionally did get through.

During the Han, examinations were only one of the methods by which officials were chosen. The vast majority were 'recommended' to the Emperor, through a process by which local officials chose the best and the most filial for higher office. It doesn't take a genius to realize how this can be abused.

Even during the Tang, the examinations system was very much biased towards the great landholding clans of China. 16 families held approximately one-fifth of all high offices during the course of the Tang, and tomb epitaphs show that identification with descent from officeholders remained a very important marker of status during this time. Pedigree always remained an important part of Tang life.

This isn't even to comment on the Tang practice of not taxing bureaucrats in their 'home jurisdiction', which meant that even the most minor official can quickly become a major landholder in his own county.

It wasn't until the tumult of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms that this was actually overthrown in Northern China, and even more gradually in Southern China - we still see remnants of Eastern Jin clans in Song lists.
 
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