Gordon Brown goes to the polls in 2007?

what if Gordon Brown had have held a general election in September/October 2007? he was ahead in the polls through the summer and in September, but the tories regained ground in October

what would have happened If he held an election in say late September? would he have won a majority?
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
As a Yank, let me ask a very basic question: the party or coalition in power has to call an election at least every 5 years but can call it sooner.

Is this generally correct?
 
As a Yank, let me ask a very basic question: the party or coalition in power has to call an election at least every 5 years but can call it sooner.

Is this generally correct?

It had been true that the Prime MInister could call an election any time they wanted to subject to a limit which is effectively five years one month.

Recent legislation makes it harder
 
anyone have any thoughts?
At a guess, he'd have done a John Major - won that election then lost the subsequent one (2012) by a landslide. I don't think I'm alone in thinking he bottled it over the 2007 election that never was, and being very uncomfortable with having someone as PM who might bottle it under pressure.
 
I think you would have had a 1950 situation with Gordon Brown just limping over the line with a small majority or a strong minority Cameron would stay in charge as he'd be able to point to a gain of 40 or 50 seats and the fragility of the Brown government, which would then be eaten away as by-elections and rebellions take their toll leading to an early election before 2012, probably in summer 2010/11 as the expense scandal and financial crisis really take their toll.

This would be a Tory landslide, remember in 2010 Cameron gained 97, i.e. 50% more than Thatcher gained in 1979. If the Tories are starting on 260 seats rather than 210 and are in the middle of the Great Recession you could very easily get a Blair sized majority.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
As a Yank, I liked PM Gordon Brown. And I liked what he said around 2009 or '10: We must invest our way to the future, not cut our way.

But then again, I'm largely won over to Keynesian economics. To me, austerity during a downturn is exactly the wrong medicine. It's like purging a patient who is already dehydrated.

===========

In part, I think Gordo Brown may have tried too hard, which didn't go over well.
 
If he had gone to the polls in 07 and won a majority and then had dealt with the crash as per OTL then by 10 we had started coming out of the recession. So in 11 with green shoots (hopefully) now in bud have an election in October 11 pushing the fact that he had sorted the crisis. It then depends on voter fatigue (ie time for a change Labour would have been in power for 14 years) but if he loses resigns and the IMF or World Bank awaits or resigns anyway in 12 and ditto. However nothing is certain in politics:)
 
Last edited:
If he had gone to the polls in 07 and won a majority and then had dealt with the crash as per OTL then by 10 we had started coming out of the recession. So in 11 with green shoots (hopefully) now in bud have an election in October 11 pushing the fact that he had sorted the crisis. It then depends on voter fatigue (ie time for a change Labour would have been in power for 14 years) but if he loses resigns and the IMF or World Bank awaits or resigns anyway in 12 and ditto. However nothing is certain in politics:)

I don't think brown would have won an election in 2011, I don't think he would have won any general election after 2007. If he resigned in 2011, and David Miliband succeded him, held a snap election in 2011, then maybe labour would have won, but its a long shot.

Another interesting thing is what would have happened to the tories if labour won a majority in 2007. Cameron would probably be out, then who? Hague?
 
I think the most likely outcome of an autumn 2007 election is probably a very small Labour majority, certainly of no more than twenty seats. If Labour won, let's say, 330 seats and a majority of ten, then that supposes the Tories make about 25 gains from Labour, and let's throw in another fifteen from the Lib Dems, who without a "debate situation" are likely to do get squeezed. Cameron's got his party an extra forty seats or so, which isn't really that many more than Howard managed in 2005. David Davis is, at this point, still a reasonably viable leadership contender, so I'd imagine there'll be murmurings against the Cameroons.

Assuming the by-elections in Crewe & Nantwich, Glasgow East and Norwich North follow a similar pattern (which isn't guaranteed if the Tories fall apart in 2007, but is not implausible) then the Government's majority will be down to four by the end of 2009: and of course that's not fully through the Parliament. IOTL, there was never a by-election in North West Leicestershire due to the sitting MP dying immediately before the GE, but ITTL there will be, which will almost certainly be another Conservative gain, taking Labour's majority down to two. ITTL, the Feltham and Heston by-election could well be won by the Conservatives, meaning Labour will limp towards the end of the Parliament without a majority. All of this of course assumes that various MPs pass away on schedule, and there are no further tragedies.

One big event that I can immediately think of going differently ITTL is the Lisbon Treaty. IOTL there were serious rebellions against this by Labour MPs, and in a situation where the Government's majority is so small, then I'd imagine it could well be defeated. That'd probably result in a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in the spring of 2008, in which I'd be surprised by anything other than a rejection by the British public: the only situation where this might be different is if the Tories have gone into all-out civil war mode after a 2007 defeat.

The local elections in 2008 and 2009 were already terrible for Labour, so I'd say it's unlikely that things will get any worse for them. What will change is that Labour's revival in local government won't begin until a few years later ITTL, giving the Tories and LDs three more local election cycles to build up their council bases and thus the efficiency of their ground operations. That'll likely mean somewhat heavier Labour losses in any ATL 2012 election. Speaking of local elections, I'd imagine the SNP will take control in Edinburgh in 2011 as OTL, and Welsh Labour will get badly battered that year too: could an anti-Labour rainbow coalition take office?

Spending plans I imagine go as OTL, although without "austerity" until 2012. Britain will probably suffer a somewhat more serious IMF downgrade: although this might be balanced by somewhat stronger economic performance between 2010 and 2012. That said, as a Right-winger I'm sceptical that the economic difficulties of 2010-13 were all to do with spending cuts, although they probably played a part.
 
I think the most likely outcome of an autumn 2007 election is probably a very small Labour majority, certainly of no more than twenty seats. If Labour won, let's say, 330 seats and a majority of ten, then that supposes the Tories make about 25 gains from Labour, and let's throw in another fifteen from the Lib Dems, who without a "debate situation" are likely to do get squeezed. Cameron's got his party an extra forty seats or so, which isn't really that many more than Howard managed in 2005. David Davis is, at this point, still a reasonably viable leadership contender, so I'd imagine there'll be murmurings against the Cameroons.

Assuming the by-elections in Crewe & Nantwich, Glasgow East and Norwich North follow a similar pattern (which isn't guaranteed if the Tories fall apart in 2007, but is not implausible) then the Government's majority will be down to four by the end of 2009: and of course that's not fully through the Parliament. IOTL, there was never a by-election in North West Leicestershire due to the sitting MP dying immediately before the GE, but ITTL there will be, which will almost certainly be another Conservative gain, taking Labour's majority down to two. ITTL, the Feltham and Heston by-election could well be won by the Conservatives, meaning Labour will limp towards the end of the Parliament without a majority. All of this of course assumes that various MPs pass away on schedule, and there are no further tragedies.

One big event that I can immediately think of going differently ITTL is the Lisbon Treaty. IOTL there were serious rebellions against this by Labour MPs, and in a situation where the Government's majority is so small, then I'd imagine it could well be defeated. That'd probably result in a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in the spring of 2008, in which I'd be surprised by anything other than a rejection by the British public: the only situation where this might be different is if the Tories have gone into all-out civil war mode after a 2007 defeat.

The local elections in 2008 and 2009 were already terrible for Labour, so I'd say it's unlikely that things will get any worse for them. What will change is that Labour's revival in local government won't begin until a few years later ITTL, giving the Tories and LDs three more local election cycles to build up their council bases and thus the efficiency of their ground operations. That'll likely mean somewhat heavier Labour losses in any ATL 2012 election. Speaking of local elections, I'd imagine the SNP will take control in Edinburgh in 2011 as OTL, and Welsh Labour will get badly battered that year too: could an anti-Labour rainbow coalition take office?

Spending plans I imagine go as OTL, although without "austerity" until 2012. Britain will probably suffer a somewhat more serious IMF downgrade: although this might be balanced by somewhat stronger economic performance between 2010 and 2012. That said, as a Right-winger I'm sceptical that the economic difficulties of 2010-13 were all to do with spending cuts, although they probably played a part.

I pretty much agree with your scenario, Labour would probably win a narrow majority in 2007, which would be looked upon in retrospect as a good election to lose. If the tories did win, then that would be interesting:D

who would take over as tory leader? Hague if he wanted too, Clarke too pro-eu, Davis?

it would be interesting if the government were brought down by a vote of no confidence
 
Brown narrowly wins in 2007, so we're spared all the "BUT WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR BROWN EVEN WHEN WE VOTED FOR THE PARTY & IT'S ALWAYS THE PARTY LEADER WHO IS PM!" crap. That's the only thing Brown's saved from - he's got an extra two years of recession, he's got two more years of Afghanistan, he's got the start of the Arab Spring, and he's got austerity (because Labour were promising cuts as well in 2010). He will look tired and beaten, Labour will be battered. Both not-Cameron and Clegg are going to be ascending. (Cameron would probably be booted after 2007 - maybe Theresa May takes charge)

I think after 2010, Brown's policies won't matter to most of the public. Does Brown intervene in Libya or not? Doesn't matter: he'll be dissed whatever choice he makes! Does the economy recover sooner under Brown and Balls than under Osborne or is it worse or is it basically the same? Doesn't matter, he's still the PM who tanked us! Unless the Crossed virus breaks out in 2008 and he actually does save the UK from it, the country will be against him* and Labour (and we'd probably go "why didn't you stopped the Crossed from killing and raping Yorkshire earlier?").

An extra two years of Brown means no coalition - those extra two years would be enough for the Conservatives to win. I can see the Lib Dems slashing into Labour and becoming the new party of the left, which is good or bad long-term depending on your politics but it also means the Tories don't have a single strong opposition party to worry about, which helps them get their reforms through. What happens by 2017 depends on how the Tories handle the economy and unemployment, which depends partly on what they inherit.


* Now there's a fun ASB...

would brown have resigned as leader in 2010/2011?


Hell no. AFter all the effort he went to in order to become PM, the only way he'd give up power was by the party voting him out.
 
Brown narrowly wins in 2007, so we're spared all the "BUT WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR BROWN EVEN WHEN WE VOTED FOR THE PARTY & IT'S ALWAYS THE PARTY LEADER WHO IS PM!" crap. That's the only thing Brown's saved from - he's got an extra two years of recession, he's got two more years of Afghanistan, he's got the start of the Arab Spring, and he's got austerity (because Labour were promising cuts as well in 2010). He will look tired and beaten, Labour will be battered. Both not-Cameron and Clegg are going to be ascending. (Cameron would probably be booted after 2007 - maybe Theresa May takes charge)

I think after 2010, Brown's policies won't matter to most of the public. Does Brown intervene in Libya or not? Doesn't matter: he'll be dissed whatever choice he makes! Does the economy recover sooner under Brown and Balls than under Osborne or is it worse or is it basically the same? Doesn't matter, he's still the PM who tanked us! Unless the Crossed virus breaks out in 2008 and he actually does save the UK from it, the country will be against him* and Labour (and we'd probably go "why didn't you stopped the Crossed from killing and raping Yorkshire earlier?").

An extra two years of Brown means no coalition - those extra two years would be enough for the Conservatives to win. I can see the Lib Dems slashing into Labour and becoming the new party of the left, which is good or bad long-term depending on your politics but it also means the Tories don't have a single strong opposition party to worry about, which helps them get their reforms through. What happens by 2017 depends on how the Tories handle the economy and unemployment, which depends partly on what they inherit.


* Now there's a fun ASB...




Hell no. AFter all the effort he went to in order to become PM, the only way he'd give up power was by the party voting him out.

there was a lot of opposition to him within the parliamentary party, the arch blairites (JOhn Reid, Charles Clarke) repeatedly undermined him.
 

John Farson

Banned
I think after 2010, Brown's policies won't matter to most of the public. Does Brown intervene in Libya or not? Doesn't matter: he'll be dissed whatever choice he makes! Does the economy recover sooner under Brown and Balls than under Osborne or is it worse or is it basically the same? Doesn't matter, he's still the PM who tanked us! Unless the Crossed virus breaks out in 2008 and he actually does save the UK from it, the country will be against him* and Labour (and we'd probably go "why didn't you stopped the Crossed from killing and raping Yorkshire earlier?").

:D:D:D

Good thing I wasn't drinking when I read that, otherwise the whole damn screen would be covered in Coca Cola Zero.

Yeah, I can just imagine the scenario: Britain as the only nation-state left on Earth, a shaky beacon of sanity and civilization amidst an ocean of madness, the whole country under draconian martial law, strict rationing of everything, anyone and everyone from outside is treated as a Crossed and blown out of the water before they make it within 10 NM of the coast...

And Brown is still lambasted by everyone and his grandmother for being weak, for not doing enough, for being too boring... he just can't get a break.:p
 
Last edited:
a shaky beacon of sanity and civilization amidst an ocean of madness

Hopefully not a Shakey beacon.

(And UKIP are finished politically - "Well, Europe no longer exists, do we have any other policies? Anyone?")

there was a lot of opposition to him within the parliamentary party, the arch blairites (JOhn Reid, Charles Clarke) repeatedly undermined him.

True, but they'd have to go all-out to shift him and (as they didn't) I don't think they'd dare. For one thing, they might lose. For another they might win! Then they're the one inheriting the mess and getting hammered in 2012, far better to take over in opposition.
 
I pretty much agree with your scenario, Labour would probably win a narrow majority in 2007, which would be looked upon in retrospect as a good election to lose. If the tories did win, then that would be interesting:D

who would take over as tory leader? Hague if he wanted too, Clarke too pro-eu, Davis?

it would be interesting if the government were brought down by a vote of no confidence

(Cameron would probably be booted after 2007 - maybe Theresa May takes charge)

Not Hague, not Clarke, certainly not May. 2007 is before Hague's been properly rehabilitated, and long before May was taken seriously by anyone: at this point she's still hated by the grassroots as the woman who spelt out the obvious in her "nasty party" speech as Party Chairman.

I would imagine a "not Cameron" candidate is going to be Davis, or perhaps Liam Fox. That said, I'm not sure Cameron being junked is altogether certain: by this point, the modernisers were definitely in the ascendant within the Tory party. I think there would definitely be grumblings, though, and Davis and/or Fox can certainly increase their power within the Shadow Cabinet. One of them, or a supporter, will likely take the Shadow Chancellorship in exchange for not stirring up trouble.
 
I would imagine a "not Cameron" candidate is going to be Davis, or perhaps Liam Fox. That said, I'm not sure Cameron being junked is altogether certain: by this point, the modernisers were definitely in the ascendant within the Tory party. I think there would definitely be grumblings, though, and Davis and/or Fox can certainly increase their power within the Shadow Cabinet. One of them, or a supporter, will likely take the Shadow Chancellorship in exchange for not stirring up trouble.

Cameron could survive the Tories don't lose too badly but after booting four leaders in ten years, I don't see them letting him stick around. Good point on Davis and Fox. Probably Davis, which would make for some fun in 2008 when he makes his stand against ID cards or in 2009 over torture - he's probably less likely to stand for by-election if he's party leader but imagine if he did. That'd be a huge PR stunt for the Tories. ("VOTE CONSERVATIVE: You Know Where WE Stand.")

If Fox, better hope a verson of the Adam Werritty scandal doesn't come out (or come out earlier) or he's going to be in real shit, meaning the party's in real shit unless he's shuffled off - and replacing your leader a year before an election is going to hurt.
 

Garrison

Donor
Big problem for the Tories would be if Cameron stays as leader and still appoints Andy Coulson; the phone hacking scandal might well break sooner with Labour in office...
 
Big problem for the Tories would be if Cameron stays as leader and still appoints Andy Coulson; the phone hacking scandal might well break sooner with Labour in office...

Well, maybe, but I'm still not convinced that phone hacking was anything other than a Westminster village tale. So, the Tories get a rough patch in 2010/11, but by that point I don't imagine it'd amount to much: they'd still be sweeping all before them in local and by-elections, and the incumbent Labour Government would still be mired in exhaustion and recession.

About Labour making cuts: I don't see them doing so in any detail prior to the General Election ITTL. The majority is going to just be too shaky. I would imagine from 2010 onwards, Labour figures will talk about making cuts, and that it'll form a part of the 2011/12 Labour manifesto, but prior to that? I don't see it, not with Brown in charge and a Government held at the mercy of individual MPs' local interests.
 
Top